Sunday, March 9, 2014

That Darn Barn

Question: We are starting up a new game and I found your site. I like a lot of your redone boons. But I have not seen anything in your page that addresses the big issue we have with Scion, that being that once you get to demigod level any character that does not have a lot of Epic Dex can never hit anything in combat. Do your rule changes have anything dealing with that?

Indeed, we do not. However, we have no problem with that, and we'll not only tell you why, we'll also tell you how your characters can still be major and important combat forces without Epic Dexterity!

First of all, it's entirely on purpose that you need Epic Dexterity to hit things. Dexterity is the stat that measures your aim, speed and flexibility; it's the stat that allows you to be able to actually hit what you swing at, as well as avoid other peoples' swings hitting you. When you become higher Legend - and your enemies are higher Legend, too! - you will find that if you don't keep up with Epic Dexterity, you will start not being able to hit all your foes' DVs. And that's on purpose, and that's how it should be; you decided, after all, not to buy the stat that is for hitting things. So you can't hit things. Your aim sucks.

But that doesn't mean that you can't do any damage in combat! It just means you won't be able to do it with the normal punch-kick-swords variety of attacks. There are plenty of options for alternative styles of combat in Scion, and it's not just the guys who frontload their physical Epic Attributes who can fight.

To begin with, if you want to stick with just physically hurting your enemies, you can decide to be a grappler instead of a brawler or a melee fighter. Grappling - that is, wrestling or otherwise physically getting into a clinch with an opponent instead of striking them - can use Strength + Brawl to hit instead of Dexterity, allowing you to ignore that pesky Dex stat completely. It does have its limitations; enemies that are too large for you to wrestle will not be attackable in this way, and when you are in a grapple, your DV is lowered to half if you're winning or zero if you're not, making you more vulnerable to additional bad guys who may want to take a piece out of you. But it's still an option for the physical fighter who doesn't want to be all that light on her feet.

There are also a ton of powers that can allow you to lower the DV of your opponents, making it much easier to hit them even if your aim isn't great. Stuff like Blitzkrieg, Tidal Interference or Trimarkisia can lower your enemy's dodging ability through the floor, so that even if you can't normally hit the broad side of a barn you might still be able to take a piece out of them. Even without powers, your band can also perform Coordinated Assaults, which allow you to strike against an enemy at a lowered DV as long as everyone attacks at the same time.

Outside of purely physical fighting, there are also tons of ways to use boons to fight enemies. Various purviews give you excellent tools for melting the faces off your opponents - for example, at Demigod level you get access to things like Shadow Boxer in Darkness, Dragon's Breath in Fire, Levin Fury in Sky or Burn in Sun. Those are just the direct damage ones, but there are also a ton of powers that give you various other combat bonuses, from making Coordinated Assaults better to giving you a dice bonus to a specific ability or attribute to increasing your damage and so on and so forth.

While we don't change the rules to make low-Dex melee fighters inexplicably succeed at hitting enemies, you might be interested in another house rule we use, affectionately termed "purview lasers" by most of our players. The basic rule is that Scions can directly attack Titanspawn or Titans (only - not other Scions, gods or mortals) with the purviews that directly oppose them, by channeling their connection to that purview and releasing it against the Titanic creature. To do so, they spend two points of Legend and roll their total number of boons in that purview, and the unlucky Titanspawn target suffers their successes in aggravated damage. This allows anyone, fighter, healer, mage or any other type of character, to contribute in combat when they're fighting something that is opposed to their mythical powers. Even if you're the weakest most delicate flower petal of a character, you can beat up a Death-aligned creature with your Health boons once in a while.

Keep in mind, also, that not every creature you fight is going to have a maxed-out DV. Some creatures - like giants, for example - are naturally slow and ponderous, and typically have low DVs and high soaks. In many combats where more than one enemy is facing you, there may be one that is the "boss" with majorly hard to hit DV, but several minions that are easier to mop up that those of you who don't have great Dexterity, meaning you can still take some people down while letting those who are better statted take on the big ugly.

We don't see any real reason to create some kind of extra system for hitting monsters; Epic Dexterity is the stat you buy for hitting people, and if you want to hit people, you should buy it. That's kind of a no-brainer. But there are plenty of ways to be effective and useful in combat (we didn't even touch on using social powers and curse-style boons to screw with enemies!) without being able to hit the broad side of a barn, so don't feel like every character is forced to buy Dexterity until the cows come home. If you want to be accurate, speedy and capable of delivering a wickedly perfect strike to an opponent's face, buy Dexterity; if you want to do other things instead, let Dex fall by the wayside and invest in other methods of fighting off the bad guys or contributing to overall group success.

18 comments:

  1. Expanding on what Anne already said...

    Epic Manipulation is also a stat that lets you hit people, by virtue of commanding them to not dodge you.

    Epic Appearance is also a stat that lets you hit people, by virtue of making them stare at you drooling at you.

    Epic Intelligence is also a stat that lets you hit people, by virtue of fighting with your head to negate their Dexterity.

    Epic Wits is also a stat that lets you hit people, by virtue of talent mirror on an ally or an enemy who is dexterous.

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    1. Honestly, Fight With Your Head needs to be nerfed hard. It gives the same ratio as the unnerfed version of Untouchable Opponent, and has way more flexibility.

      But you guys probably hear that all the time.

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    2. We do, anon. :) But one thing at a time.

      And first anon is totally right, even just within knacks there are a ton of ways to use non-Dex to contribute to or deal damage in battle. With boons added in, it's a potpurri of options.

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  2. Also, Scion is not only about combat. Early on, things start to fall by the wayside compared to your peers, which is good as it allows everyone a time to shine.

    Take Sangia for a moment. Terrifying combat monster, but terrible at subtle argument, devising plans or investigations. Outside of combat, Geoff will dominate any social situation, while Vivian and Folkwarder come up with the plans, unravel the mysteries, see danger coming and maneuver the band to where it needs to be.

    The best combat is the one you win before it starts. Social and mental characters can 'win' combat by twisting their opponents in webs of feels, misdirection or commanding presence. Intellectual characters can know how to avoid them, set traps or find the 'achillies heel' of monsters - silver for werewolves, horcruxes for Voldemort etc.

    So long as they can survive combat (go epic stamina!) non-combat focused characters shouldn't sweat not taking the lead in murder-fests. They can still support with buff/debuff/special powers, and can carry the weight everywhere else.

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    1. I cannot agree with this sentiment enough. I was just having the most delightful conversation regarding Physical characters vs. Social ones on the Onyx Path Forums. There is a reason, after all, that Horus, not Set, is king of the Gods.

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    2. Very true. Set is the guy who murders the enemies, but Horus is the one who doesn't have to. Half the time they're beaten before they even start fighting.

      There's a bit of a stigma against playing "support characters" for some reason - I can't put my finger on it, unless it's that some players feel like if they're not the ones actually splitting the dragon's head in twain, they're not the focus of the story and they're just secondary characters in someone else's cooler tale. And if you're looking at it that way, then I totally understand why it would bother you. But unless your ST lets you do literally nothing interesting except for combat, that should never happen; the characters who are just "support" in combat become the star members of the group when it comes to politics or tracking or riddles or traps or recruiting allies or whatever else the group needs to do. And at that point, the combat characters, who probably aren't as great at that stuff, become the "support". Everyone should get their moments in the limelight, but that can happen by wooing the king into supporting your cause just as much as by slicing a cyclops' head off.

      And seriously, if you can do things like grant the better combatters bonuses or levy penalties on the enemies, even if you're not personally swinging the sword, you are way useful in combat.

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    3. Interestingly, in most of my groups it is the 'combat characters' that have a stigma attached to them.

      While it is certainly true that a lot of social powers let you absolutely dominate a combat scene if you desire, it is often a better idea to let your combat characters stretch their muscles and have their moment in the spotlight.

      They spent XP into combat abilities, which is their direct way of telling the storyteller that they want stories where their character explodes heads, endures horrendous wounds, or engages in amazing athletics. Let them shine!

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  3. >There's a bit of a stigma against playing "support characters" for some reason - I can't put my finger on it, unless it's that some players feel like if they're not the ones actually splitting the dragon's head in twain, they're not the focus of the story and they're just secondary characters in someone else's cooler tale.

    Because Scion is a divinity-themed Superhero game, and the Superhero genre is all about punching the bad guy in the face.

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    1. Not necessarily. :) Scion's a game about playing a divine hero, but there are all kinds of divine heroes. Odysseus is famed not for his fighting skill (although he's decent at that) but for his incredible cunning and ability to think up schemes and strategies. Orpheus is famous not for fighting, but for his incredible muscial feats and ability to sway the hearts even of gods. Hoori is famous not for fighting, but for going on exciting adventures to magical lands and interacting with creatures beyond the mortal realm, and so on and so forth.

      Scion is in a sense a superhero game, in that it's about starting out as a human, becoming superhuman, and eventually ascending to divinity, but it's not a superhero game in the sense of "it's your job to kill monsters". If anything, it's the other way around - the modern superhero comics/movie genre is based on stories in the style of ancient mythological epics, and the heroes of such don't always need to be able to hit their foes in the face to win. Horus wins his contests through trickery, Hermes through speed and guile, Aengus through wordplay and wittiness, Tezcatlipoca through sorcery. And Scions can, and should, always have as many options to be an important and mythic hero in non-combat ways as through fighting.

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  4. Johannes EyjolfssonMarch 10, 2014 at 1:49 AM

    In my game, I have two separate groups. The younger one - Team Light - is a 3-player deal, with two physical characters, and a third character yet to be made, but will probably be more social/mental focus (I hope).

    However, it's the other group - Team Darkness - that is the most interesting in this context. Four players, all with an exclusively social bent, although in very different ways. They are tricksters, magicians, thieves, leaders etc. It's an interesting experiment, and completely coincidental. It's what the players wanted to do, and I am more than happy to oblige. :)

    Also, to tie into the whole "I can't kill stuff without Dex" argument, Team Darkness' favourite tactic for dealing with groups of enemies is to bullshit their way into the group (four characters with Epic Manipulation can go a long way!), and when they are accepted into the group and their guard is down, they create a diversion, in the lines of "complete and utter chaos". When the enemies are busy dealing with whatever threat they conjured for them...they stab them in the back. :P

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  5. There are many problems with Dexterity, but it being required to hit things isn't one. The biggest problem is that, unlike Strength and Stamina, Dexterity pulls TRIPLE duty. It lets you hit things (accuracy), lets you deal extra damage (additional hit successes = more damage) AND defends you (dodge/parry DV).

    So, yeah, it's a crazily unbalanced trait, literally three times as good as Strength (only good for hitting) or Stamina (only good for soaking), but not because it does one thing (hit stuff). It's the OTHER two things it does (defense and damage) that make it crazy.

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    1. We actually spent a lot of time yesterday talking about how Stamina is doing too many things and is also an overbalance problem. It not only governs soak, but also how many health boxes you have and how quickly damage you take can heal naturally, all of which automatically stack on one another. Not to mention the auxiliary of how long you can go without food/water/rest/breathing.

      Dex has more going on, too - you left out it governing speed. But anyway, we're discovering as we work on the boons project that a lot of little system changes also need to happen, so you'll be seeing some of those roll out along with various purviews.

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    2. It's true, Stamina does many things, but they're all defensive things and, generally, passive things. It *feels* less powerful than Dexterity which double dips into both offense *and* defense, as well as being primarily active.

      Scion, she has ALL the issues.

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    3. Stamina does a lot of really important and powerful things, it is just not very dramatic about it. It is Strength that is the real underdog.

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  6. You refer to Levin fury, and i know this is gonna be a rewritten purview so this question is half meaningless, but does it too not use Epic dex to hit? Granted it says you add your sky-boons, but the core is still dex, right?

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    1. No, it uses Wits to hit, and Charisma OR Strength to damage. In fact, I just did a word search on the Sky Page. Dexterity appears precisely thrice, and each time it is as a Dex+Ath roll to avoid damage from Sky Boons.

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    2. That's correct, although of course the whole purview will be changing soon so mechanical specifics will, too. I actually hesitated to even link all those ones we're changing, since I knew we would be, but I figure some people could use help now rather than waiting a few months for us to get our act together. :)

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