About once a season, I have a night where I get bombed out of my tree for no reason. This results in half a day of recovering from a hangover, followed by a week or more of incredible productivity. Im writing this post from the past, and by the time you read it I'll probably be nursing a monster hangover. But I recommend this method of Dionysian inspiration for anyone whose life it wouldnt utterly ruin. Towards that end, this week I'll be cleaning out my email and answering John-specific blog questions(they might now show up this week but I'll be writing them this week). I have a giant inbox full of stuff to answer, but in case Ive missed something from you, or if you have something new that you want my attention to. Now is the week to send it in.
Onward!
The big thing Ive been meaning to talk about in a blog is the boons project. Im very excited about it, and its sort of spinning us towards a new plateau in mechanics for the game. At least I feel that way, I hope you do as well(although I have access to the two other finished purviews that you don't ;)
Id like to outline my goals and hopes for the project and you should feel free to agree or disagree with them in general or specifically :)
1. Balance
Purviews should be balanced not only with the game system, but with each other. One purview shouldn't be incredibly awesome while another is mediocre. We shouldn't see, in vast amounts, people taking X purview over Y purview every time cause Y purview sucks. Its cool if there is more of X purview because it tends to be more mythically relevant, but not because it has worse powers and mechanics.
2. Awesomeness
Boons should feel awesome at every level. Hero level boons should be something really cool a hero could do, and god level boons should be something really cool a god could do. As few levels as possible(hopefully none) should you feel bad about picking up. Each new boon you get should be exiting, not a step on a path towards something else.
3. Progress
As much as possible, going up the levels of a purview should feel like progress. Like each step you take(each awesome step) is another puzzle piece that you want to finally complete. Each boon should seem like a part of a whole.
4. Doing
As much as possible(sometimes it seemed necessary not to) boons should be about doing. Something you activate, or something that activates on you that "does" something. Static buffs and powers that pretended to do something but didnt actually effect anything should be gone(not completely successful here). This is especially crucial for me at level 1. I want legend 2 scions to have powers that do things. I want boons to be active.
5. Purging
Last time we went through boons 4 years ago, we kept a lot of boons that were part of the old system, even if we didnt like them, because they were part of the old system. That rule is gone. If something sucks, its gone. If something doesnt make sense, its gone. If something isnt mythological, its gone. No holds barred culling of things that are bad. We also are trying to purge strange rolls/systems within the boons. So maybe a boon works fine, but it has a random role that basically does nothing, or does something that could be handled better in a different manner. We're trying hard to find that different manner.
6. Mechanics
If something in scion basic mechanics makes a boon harder/shitty/pointless, but we feel that the boon is important we'll change the mechanic instead of scrapping the boon(when possible). This more often then not, has lead us towards messy/sloppy/pointless mechanics that needed changing anyway. We generally try to do this as we go along on this website, but this project has spurred us towards making it a priority.
7. Full mythological immersion
As we start each purview, we plumb the depths about myths and legends on that purview and try to make sure, whenever possible that if it happened in myth, we have a way to make it happen through boons. We dont always succeed, just because of the sheer number and ways of doing things. But its a goal. So far, in general we've been starting with 30ish boons and wittling them down to 20 superior boons. Sometimes the extra 10 get mixed in, sometimes they get put aside as things "avatar" would do.
8. Clarity and purpose
Boons that do multiple things are confusing and hard to remember. Its hard enough remembering the 100 powers you have, it gets increasingly harder when some of your powers do multiple things. We've tried to cut this down as much as possible. Often when a boon does more then one things, those things could be their own power. Or could combine with a boon that does something very similar in order to at least have some clarity within the boon. This is another one that doesnt always succeed, but we strive towards it.
And I think thats everything. Although I'm sure Im missing something. A lot of these are based on perspective and "feelings" but I think your perspective is valid. So if one of the purviews or boons in a purview breaks one of these "rules/goals" for you, lemme know and I'll either try to explain my perspective, and/or take your feedback into consideration.
Thanks for indulging me :)
And hopefully you've enjoyed, and continue to enjoy our work on the purview rewrites.
A long time ago when Goze was a you g Darkness/Psycopomp, we sat around the table and discussed combinations of boons to have a unique effect. Are these things with writing down, or are they better left to stunts and a willing ST? I recall mention of having both high level Sun and Moon to accomplish...... Something....? Just something I was wondering if you two were still considering.
ReplyDeleteBut we dont want to say "these are the official combo boons, others are bad," but at the same time, sometimes they're very appropriate. Im not sure how many we'll end up having, but there are at least a couple now. Although they dont force you to have both boons, and instead let you combo off your friends powers instead(if need be).
DeleteAwesome!
DeleteThis is the most exciting thing to happen since Ra! (Egyptian Scions will understand, praise his name.)
DeleteI agree with all of these points except #3, but that's because I don't like viewing the Purview system as divine-level Disciplines that progress in a linear fashion up a power scale, but rather as categorizations of individual abilities that are each distinct from each other, but fall under a similar theme.
ReplyDeleteNot a view that y'all share, I know, but aside from that, John's totally got it nailed on how mechanics should work.
If I could Make one futile attempt to make a request. Frost....My favorite Purview...Frost 3 ( HRIMMTHURSSAR'S TOUCH ) and Frost 4 ( FROZEN PANOPLY ) are in my opinion the two best frost boons in the line Frost 3 makes it feel you are harnessing the actual nature of ice itself being so cold you cause damage to the skin. And frost 4 makes me feel like a Frost Giant from the first Thor Movie when they were making Ice weapons with their hands it was amazing...I know I'm just one voice but that's my wish and hope thanks for taking it into consideration.
ReplyDeleteHrims touch will probably stay in some form. Panoply is, probably...like 99% going away. A power that gives you an ice weapon? maybe. But a power that just makes anything you want out of ice(or any element) bad.
DeleteIts also very hard to balance a weapon creating power. In scion, weapons are both awesomely crafted things, and all around you(that car, that house, that mountain), so having a boon that makes a weapon seems underwhelming. However we cant make it too powerful, because it still needs to be less powerful then relic weapons that are crafted, over long periods of time, with massive legend usage.
So are some balancing hurdles we need to overcome. But Id put frost in the bottom 5 of purviews that are gonna take us the longest amount of time.
B-but... but... Elsa! Frozen!
DeleteI kinda see your point, this has come up several times in our games (also with Shadowcraft/Dreamcraft). We usually just settle it by saying "you can't create anything bigger than your #Boons times x".
It also steps weirdly on Artistry's toes, and just regular crafting really. You probably shouldn't be able to create flawless weapons from ice if you have 0 knowledge of how weapons are made. Although I'd still let them create hunks or spikes and such.
Hopefully whatever replaces it will be awesome.
What about Ice armor, like ice man or something I think that honestly is one of the best things about Frost Panolpy is the ability to make Riot gear kinda feel like bobby drake when I activate that ability and fluff wise my character covers his body with ice. Even came up with a picture I use https://db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net/assets/296227/iceman_reimagined_by_van_der_dot-d5mtm8i.jpg?1392412130 (Yes im trying to save it even tho i could still do it just for RP fluff) but speaking from a Tank character player standpoint Frost was a good one to raise a characters soak by not alot but enough to make a slight difference between a stam heavy person and a tank (in my opinion) Maybe frost panolpy needs to go Yes making any weapon you want for one legend is kinda OP i agree but i think a boon that increases Soak to represent the hardiness of ice (dont know bout you but punching a wall of ice is prolly gonna hurt) Just my two cents. But my game is JSR 100% so whatever changes you make I will love cause my band of Scions and my ST love you guys and no matter what we know that you will make all the purviews what they should be even if things we love get taken out. Thanks for taking the time to do them I know it cant be easy, We all appreciate the hard work.
DeleteFrost Panoply basically has the same problem as Water Control...it's doing too much. On the other hand, a Boon that surrounds you with an ice cloak sounds like a fairly awesome idea for a new Boon!
DeleteI'm going to find it very interesting to see how you balance points 7 and 8. Case in point: Water Control. Making water sit up and beg is totally something Water Gods need to do, as per mythic resonance, but this one single Boon was doing so many things that half the Water Purview is nothing but carbon copies of Water Control! I admit, this kind of problem mostly arises with the Elemental Purviews due to their unique nature, but others, like Health are also culprits. It's chock full of what is essentially the same Boon recycled ten times.
ReplyDeleteOur rule so far is to split it into different boons and work hard to make each power do something specific, but also worth the boon. Water is becoming 20 boons and I think only 5 of them made the most recent cut. So itll be very different then before.
DeleteHi John - thanks for opening the floor. I really like Prophesy and Magic - interested to see what you do with the rest.
ReplyDeleteI do have to say something about points 3 and 4 :
3. Progress : A lot of the cooler boons are outliers to their Purview. While they still fit in the "Association" of the Purview, they don't always have a linear relation to the others - Creative Spark in Fire, for example.
I like this about your system as is - it makes Purviews more expansive and "cool" - you have control over the entire concept, not a Discipline related to it. I hope you keep the outliers in the new rewrite.
4. Doing : I hope you don't do away with static boons - they're awesome and really "open up" the game for PC's. Active boons tend to be cool, but restrictive : you activate the boon, and it does this one thing, and that's it. Static, passive boons give PC's an edge which they can use in a wide variety of plans and actions, which opens up the game to player creativity and planning.
For example, Dragon's Breath is cool - you pay the cost and the Zombies all take X damage. Good, but restrictive in use.
But Fire Immunity, at hero level, allows you to fill a building with gas and then use the ensuing inferno to roast the Zombies while you wail away at them with fire-immune fists. This lets the PC take the driver's seat and think of interesting ways to have their powers interact with the world around them, rather than using them as a gun with legend ammo.
I think Syprix Rushan made a great point about Frost powers : a lot of the coolest powers have cross-applications between combat and non-combat situations. Things which help in combat, like Tidal Interference or Axis of Heaven etc. all do cool things in combat, but there's no conceptual reason why they couldn't be used to mess with or help people outside of combat.
Couldn't Axis of heaven be used in other coordinated activities, like troupe dancing, team acrobatics, maintaining balanced as a group on a tricky ledge or other group feats of strength or dexterity?
Couldn't Tidal Interference, which messes with people's balance, likewise be used to mess with that dancing troupe, above?
Boons that can be used outside of combat opens the game up for different ways of interacting with human and supernatural worlds, and really open up the purview, as well, to broader uses.
Those are my two cents, anyway. I think you're pretty much bang on, as usual, and I'm super psyched to see what comes next!
Thanks again for all your work on this, I know everyone in my group is really grateful!
Hey James :),
DeleteOutliers: We're gonna have to see. We try to fit in as many as possible, I know water has some really cool new ones, but they're gonna be different then the old creative spark type boons. More active.
Static boons: They arent gone. There were very few of them to start with so I think there are the same amount or more. But Id say they're slightly more interactive. Still not active, but imo, more fitting and interesting. I think you're talking up the ability of static powers to allow the pcs ideas way too much though. Your zombie plan works exactly the same if the pc just jumps off the top of the building at the end. The pcs should always be taking the drivers seat, I think "i can stay in the building cause im fire immune" is actually less of an "interesting solution" then having to ACTUALLY figure a way out of the building. Fire immunity in that situation just seems like a cop out, a cool one, but not interesting or hard to think of.
There isnt a need to make boons that work both in combat and out of combat. Thats extra balancing and adds another layer to the difficulty of making the boon. It also makes things more complicated for the player in a way that Im not sure makes sense. What is the difference, other then xp cost, of just having 2 boons, one for combat and one for out of combat? Because making 2 boons instead of one messy boon gives a ton more room for creative balance within both boons.
DeleteThank you for the feedback, it was very well said and excellent. Ill think on it.
I'm intrigued to see what you have in store for the other elemental purviews! Number 2 is going to be a challenge I bet, but it's something that's really needed to avoid having one Scion whose best power is seeing through candles next to one who flies and another one who waterbends.
ReplyDeleteIt's also very much needed with Stars, which I love in concept but I feel isn't as awesome as Sun, for example. Oh, and Fertility! Don't even get me started on Fertility...
Of course, it will mostly be a matter of perspective in the end, since not everyone will see the same thing as being awesome... but I'd trust John and Anne's definition of awesome any day.
I'll see if I can round up all of the boon ideas that have come up over time in my games, right now they're all kind of a mess (and in spanish, to boot).
Google translate!
DeleteGreat work so far. Really looking forward to Sky and Thunder. :)
ReplyDeleteAlso, with the Prophecy update, you kind of need to take a peek at the Babalayo / Iyalawo boon over in Ori. Since the Become the Herald boon no longer exists, you'd need to reword that.
Definitely looking forward to the changes. I only ask that you try to keep the number of dice adders somewhat streamlined. The current way they are handled created two problems:
ReplyDelete1) There is a huge discrepancy with dice adders, where some add way too many and others add way too few.
2) Tons of dice adders just make a giant laundry list of bonuses that are hard for anyone to keep track of. This was a huge problem in D&D 4E and I hope it gets streamlined down with your changes.
Just to be clear, I'm totally cool with dice adders as a concept. They just need to give more consistent bonuses and not have tons and tons and tons of little bonuses.