Question: Like the question about which pantheon is the biggest, this one is about the smallest-seeming pantheons: the Egyptian and Aztec gods. What do they offer to the world? I mean, they make some cool PC scions, but what do they offer aside from that if you are running a mostly Egypt/Mexico themed game? Like, the Greeks have all those monsters that a young band could go up against - minotaurs, centaurs, harpies, and so on. The Aztecs and Egyptians just have their gods.
You just made me blink, question-asker. I can kind of understand viewing the Aztlanti as one of the smaller pantheons in the game, because their lesser gods are comparatively few and not always well-understood, but what gives you the idea that the Pesedjet are small? There are tons of Egyptian gods, both minor and major; it was a really long-running religion with a very lively cast of deities. They're not even short on playable gods; even after we took Geb and Kebauet off the roster, there are thirteen of them, easily outstripping the smaller pantheons in the game.
If I were going to pinpoint the smallest pantheons in the game, it would probably be the Yazata - who are seriously tiny, as in the people you see on their family tree are pretty much the entire complement of gods - and the Tuatha, who have a decent number of minor members but a fairly small core group of Legend 12 gods. Even they aren't what I'd call "small" pantheons in a global sense, because there are a great many mythologies that have only two to five gods to their names, spread out across the world and its many cultures. Compared to the very small divine groups of the African Bushmen, southern Japanese Ryukyuan or various aboriginal Australian tribes, nine Yazata looks like a giant unified front.
But I think the second half of your question is more important, and very revealing of the strong European bias in Scion and a lot of its players. (Not that I'm picking on you at all - it's pretty normal for most of us!)
Scion is designed for a primarily western audience, mostly targeted at the United States and Canada with small forays into the more westerly of the European countries. It's therefore heavily based on the mythologies that those players are most likely to know well: the Greco-Roman ones, which most of us still learn in school at some point, and to a smaller extent the myths of the Norse gods, which have never gone out of style for most of the western world. They're by far the most well-known mythologies for the intended audience; the fact that Hindu myth is far larger, more complex and absolutely full of adventures and characters wasn't considered important enough to even get it into the game until Companion came out, because it just wasn't very familiar to western players and therefore not on the front lines when the developers were looking for material they thought players would want to use.
But most of us automatically know Greco-Roman and Norse myth, at least a little bit, which makes it seem more "real" and exciting to us. Everyone's heard of Pegasus, knows about Heracles and has at least a passing familiarity with the Greek gods. Everyone knows that Thor is the god of thunder, that he fights giants, and that Ragnarok means the end of the world. We see them all the time, whether in blockbuster movies like Clash of the Titans and Immortals, in popular book series like Percy Jackson orthe Thor comic books, or as the stars of computer games like Age of Mythology. They're a recognizable part of our pop culture, and as a result we tend to know them much, much better than any other pantheons.
Most players that come into Scion (obviously not you guys with anthropology degrees, so don't start getting offended) don't have that familiarity with other cultures' myths. There are no blockbuster movies about the Aztec gods, no popular western comic books that are all about the kami, and if you try to figure out the Pesedjet from Hollywood's infrequent forays into Egypt, you'll just come away with a vague notion that the only major god is some kind of werewolf-monster named Anubis and that maybe the Egyptian gods are all space aliens. As a generality, western culture occasionally borrows the trappings of other mythologies because they're cool and exotic, but it almost never looks into them deeper than that.
So your average player comes into this game with a pretty good foundation in Greco-Roman and maybe one other mythology, and they know all about cyclopes, pegasi, gorgons and other critters that might jump them. But since they have no real knowledge of the other pantheons, they don't have that background for them, and it looks like those mythologies have no important features but the gods themselves. And that, I think, is what's happening for you, my inquisitive friend - it's not that those mythologies don't have things to offer, but just that they aren't nearly as well-known. And that's okay, because not everyone has to come into this game with a background in ancient religions, and that's what this blog is here to help out with!
Egyptian mythology has plenty of mythical creatures of its own. While mummies really aren't one of them - the ancient Egyptians were not at all worried about mummified dead people, which is something that European explorers discovering them centuries later got all wigged out about - there are plenty of other creatures to call up from the annals of Egyptian folklore, from the immortal benu bird to the bizarre serpopard to the four-winged bait serpent to various different kinds of sphinxes, very distinct from the Greek versions. Thanks to the close proximity and overlap between the Greeks and the Egyptians, many creatures we tend to think of as Greek, like gryphons, were also probably originally borrowed from the Egyptians.
Aztec mythology is definitely not empty of folkloric creatures, either, but it's even more obscure to most players, because Egyptian mythology did get some historical attention in Europe and the United States while the Aztecs were much more poorly understood (thanks in part to the fact that they recorded things in pictorial and oral traditions instead of using a formal writing system). From Mexico come such antagonistic beasties as the hungry, man-drowning-and-eating ahuizotl, the lost spirits of the cihuateteo, those canine messengers of the underworld the itzcuintin, an entire race of malevolent, mostly-extinct giants called Quinametzin who may have survived the destruction of the earlier worlds, and of course the hideous, insect-like star-demons known as the tzitzimime. Modern Mexican folklore continues to believe in various other nasty little creatures as well - not just the cliched chupacabra, but also various kinds of malevolent or dangerous goblin-like creatures collectively called duende.
Seems like plenty enough antagonists to keep budding young Scions busy, right? But even more important are the other things each pantheon brings to the game world, far beyond just basic questions like what kinds of monsters Scions might fight. Each pantheon represents a unique culture and religion, which brings entirely new dimensions into the game with it. They bring in the fantastical other worlds of those religions, their underworlds and overworlds and Terrae Incognita and enchanted places and temples. They bring unique cosmic concepts like the necessity of sacrifice, the struggle of righteousness against disorder, the cyclical recreation of the world or the heavenly parts of the divine soul that the game would not otherwise benefit from. They bring personalities, powers and beliefs that exponentially increase the possibilites and options for practically anything Scions want to do in the world.
And that is why strong, fleshed-out pantheons, no matter what their size, are always awesome additions to the game. They aren't necessary for anyone who isn't interested or doesn't want to deal with them, but each added pantheon adds to the incredible, rich diversity and possibilities of the game world, just as each culture you learn about in real life adds to your understanding of how amazing the differences and similarities between human civilizations are. A new pantheon is much more than just a new set of divine parents and a few new Titanspawn to throw at players; it's another glorious and exciting piece of the entire game world.
No one should ever feel obligated to use all the pantheons we put out, or even all the pantheons in the original rules, if they aren't interested in or comfortable with them. No one should ever feel like they need to have a Masters degree or spend all their weekends researching to play this game; anyone who wants to should be able to walk in and create a rollicking adventure from whatever parts of whatever mythologies they most know and love. Every pantheon brings with it unique challenges, antagonists, concepts and deities, and Storytellers should use as many or few of them as they want to. If you feel like Greek mythology has more to offer you than Aztec, then there's no reason you can't run your game primarily based on Greek mythology.
But if you want to use things from those other mythologies, they're always there. All you have to do is go out and hunt them down.
Lol, the more that I stay on here and continue with my degree, the more I think I should get an anthropology degree. The reason why I say this is cause I am a Game Design Major, which is fancy for saying I want to create video games. In the course of this, I have found the more you know, the more you can play on later down the road, like having a small book with bits of info. Nothing major, like knowing all of the Gods with Egypt, but most of the Major movers and shakers and can jump from that point.
ReplyDeleteI have to say though, it is very common with Scion. People I know like to do stereotypes and they come off cartoonish or cheesy. Oh well, the research is out there for people to read, but I don't know if many wish to.
Well, if a group likes stereotypes and kitsch, more power to them; sounds like fun. We like more research, but then we are the kind of people who research for fun, so we clearly aren't applicable to everyone.
DeleteIt's all about getting a group together who all want to play in the same style.
Yeah, I can understand that. I am currently trying to find a group that does not do stereotypes so profoundly, but most of the people are doing Dungeons and Dragon and they try to power through with a Sorcerer/Wizard/Rogue, Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian and a Cleric/Bard/Druid. They tend to not like it when someone messes with the flow, lol.
DeleteHopefully I can find a group that is more geared to how I wish to play, but it seems unlikely. At least, so far.
Hey Kyle, I notice you complain about your ST a lot, but I'm wondering why don't you just run a game yourself? You seem to have John and Anne's ear on a lot of things, and apparently if you have so much to complain about your ST then you must be better at running games than he is, so why don't you do it?
DeleteI'm not saying this as a sort of 'stop whining' kind of thing, I'm saying it because I've been in plenty of games where my friends really, really suck at ST-ing, so I usually just ask if I can run a game instead. When the time comes where they run a game again, I notice they take a lot of the stuff they liked about my games (the stuff that I wanted an ST to do when I was playing) and put it in theirs. Instead of arguing that somebody's doing it wrong, you can show them by running it yourself.
If they think your game's crap, even when you do all the things you'd like to see, and they haven't been won over, THEN you should realize this gaming group probably isn't on the same wavelength as you.
But maybe your gaming group plays things the way they do because it's what they're used to, and they haven't really realized there's any other way to do it yet. It happens.
^To answer your question.
Delete"Ain't nobody got time for that shit!"
To be realistic, the amount of time I would want to put into a game, I just don't have it right now due to how busy I am trying to be. I have tried, but the game fell apart before we started cause the guy that was an ST that was suppose to be gone that night and let me try, came back and everyone wanted to do his game. I soon after left his game.
Truthfully, I would like to do it, but I already have a bad reputation with some of the players I used to be with as a bad player, so they do not wish to be in a game I run. It comes from people trying to basically get away with stuff that goes directly against some rules and I call them out on it or we have characters that are stereotypes and have no real depth to them, then I come with a character that has depth and they do not like him at all.
Its a vicious thing of where I really have no idea where to go, cause I have changed groups every now and again, yet can not find a group for the most part that is in a similar gaming mode. Just the way it goes sometimes.
As for what they are used to, I hear about it all the times. ST's trying to screw over players at every turn, flirting with players and giving them extra stuff, etc, etc. I've heard it all, what I am kind of shocked to hear is they say its in the past, when it still happens. But then I realize that most people at the table tend to be passive aggressive and don't speak up when some grade A bs is thrown at us and take the lumps cause a game is going on. But thats just me.
In closing, I have tried, four times actually to run a game. They all fall apart cause I can not get players to stick with it to actually start playing.
This is part of the reason I think Scion should have a list of reccomended literature, fiction and nonfiction, to let people understand who some of these folks are. Along with a list of things for a person to desperately avoid.
ReplyDeleteI can see our comment threads the day after we posted something like that: "You're giving us homework?!" "You're not the boss of us!" "Oh my god why do you hate fun and spontaneity?"
DeleteBut yes, I think that might actually be helpful for some groups and STs who wanted an easy resource to go to but weren't big library-divers. :)
Hey, basically every other White Wolf game has a list of things to read if you want a better idea of the setting...
DeleteHm...
ReplyDeletePerhaps a better word would have been insular instead of small? Every day Ra gets on his boat and he and the other gods beat back the hungry serpent, Horus' rule was undermined by his uncle Set and so on. Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca are fighting amongst one another,and Huitzilopochtli fends off his siblings in the night sky. Without the infighting it seems as if there is very little that they actually interacted with.
Oh, not at all! Like all other gods, they created the world and everything in it, more hands-on than most, in fact. Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca killed the great earth monster to create dry land, the latter losing his foot in the process; Ra masturbated the first gods and land into existence, while Ptah's sacred words formed the environment for all to live in; Sobek invented fishing nets in order to retrieve Horus' children from the Nile to become gods in their own right; Huitzilopochtli led the homeless Mexica to a glorious kingdom of their own. Both are pantheons that do tons of important things for and with humanity, the elements and one another.
DeleteAnd besides, I'm not sure why fighting amongst themselves doesn't sound like divine behavior that leads to interesting stories. Every pantheon does that, the Greeks being particularly famous for it. Sparks between different gods are often just as important as their non-spats. They're no more insular among themselves than any other pantheon - it's just that their stories aren't as well-known to the average gamer.
Well yes, that is all well and good, but that happened in the past. They have little to offer to the world outside of an interesting cultural aesthetic, and in the case of the Aztecs wanton slaughter and murder hobos.
DeleteIn fighting isn't an issue, but the other pantheons offer a bit more to the world for Story Tellers. Like the Norse and Greek gods added a bunch of monsters and other cool things. Giants, Cerebus, Norns, and so on. The Amatsukami have Yokai and the many elemental Kami. I'm not 100% on my Hindu myths but I seem to remember Ravana fighting tons of Rakshasa, there are garuda and naga and so on. There are fey to deal with for the Irish Scions. Things that you can work with.
It just seems like the Egyptian and Aztecs only offered the bare bones of a pantheon. I don't even think they have "wizards" of a sort. Like no magical story dudes who did awesome things; just slaying and toiling under the hot sun.
I'm a bit confused. They have a ton of mythical creatures to enjoy, starting with all the ones I listed in the post above, and complex and vibrant political setups. Their stories just as much in the past than the stories of every other pantheon (Devas possibly excepted, since they do have new myths written now and then); it's not like there are brand-new things being done by Zeus & co. right now, either, so what else did you expect from them? They have plenty of lower-Legend gods that more than flesh out their pantheons - especially the Pesedjet, who I'm still baffled are part of this question. They're probably the most well-established, well-populated and storied pantheon after the Devas and Dodekatheon.
DeleteAlso, both pantheons have plenty of magic of the wizardly sort. Isis and Thoth are very definitely magic-oriented wizards, and there are several gods among the Pesedjet that are not physically oriented, the most obvious being Ptah, god of wisdom and creation, Nephthys, goddess of protection for the dead, and Anubis, who contrary to Hollywood's apparent beliefs does not in fact have anything to do with slaying or toiling. The Aztlanti have a premier wizard in Tezcatlipoca, who is as magical a badass as ever was; they are more combat-heavy than many pantheons so there aren't too many of them who don't do that at some point, but they have as wide a range of skills and functions as any other pantheon and certainly aren't confined to just fighting stuff and living in the desert. This point actually confused me, too - there are other pantheons that don't have magicians (the Amatsukami, for example!), and you don't seem to have a problem with them.
There's a huge amount to work with for both pantheons. You're of course entitled to not be interested in them or use them in your games, but to say they don't add anything to the world is just inaccurate.
Hey Anne and John, you mind helping me out. Can I get a small list of books about Asian, Pacific Islander and Central/Southern America? Something of an overview of the religions and cultures.
DeleteThat or maybe authors that are well trusted? Like to brush up on some of them since I am going to have over two months to myself in near solitude.
I'm fine with European and some Middle Easterner cultures for now.
My god thatas a huge question to answer.....
DeleteBlog question or Vlog question worthy? :P
DeleteI think, maybe, what Anonymous is talking about is that the stories we have left from Aztec myth are about the *Gods* doing things. There aren't a lot of demigod-type heroes running around IN the World, doing stuff. The notable exception, of course, being the Popul Vuh which is Mayan, not Aztec.
DeleteThe Egyptians have this same heavy focus on their Gods. There aren't a lot of Hero or Demigod type figures in their mythology that are out slaying monsters. Most of their stories don't involve those creatures and monsters, they're all about the Gods. Yes, the creatures and monsters exist, but they're a level or two down from just reading through the basic stories of Set and Horus and Ra and Bast, etc.
I can see where he's coming from, but all he needs to do is go down a level or two in his research and he'll find the monsters waiting!
@ Anne: No Japanese magic? What about Onmyodo? Or did you leave it out on purpose, because it's mainly based on Buddhist and Taoist rites? That would be kind of sad, because it sure is cool (e.g. the principle of Sakanagi, a failed spell hitting the wizard themself. Especially funny if you try to do a deadly curse, as happened in the Uji Shui Monogatari).
DeleteSource J has it right; I guess I'm just very bad at getting to the point. I am so sorry.
DeleteAnd I was talking about mortal wizards, witches or druids. Just sort of scary dudes who can do mystical things; I think most cultures have them. I at least know that there are Brujah legends.
I'm just going to stop talking.
Don't sweat it, it's hard to get your point across online sometimes!
DeleteI didn't mention Onmyodo because I thought we were talking about the gods specifically, and it's not something that they really have anything to do with (especially since, as you noted, most of them are Shinto-based whereas Onmyodo is an outside import from China). But I see what you mean now! There are actually strong human magician traditions in both Mexico and Egypt - the modern brujah you mentioned as well as the traditional nagual (there's a fun Aztec myth about the sorcerer-king Huitzilhuitl who impregnated another sorcerer's daughter with an arrow when her father refused to let him marry her, and another one about a bunch of human sorcerers shapeshifting into their nahualli to go visit Coatlicue, though sadly a lot of them don't make it back home), and over in Egypt the tradition of sorcerer-priests and -kings was a long one (here's a quick page on the basics of it if you're interested).
Source J's right, though - they have those things, but they aren't as common as they are in, say, Greek myth, which abounds with demigods. It's a difference in how those religions viewed the world; the Aztec religion is all about how the gods and great forces of the universe have to preserve it, meaning that a lot of their stories focus on that, while the Greek religion wasn't worried about the universe breaking down and instead uses a lot of tales to illustrate concepts that were dearer to them, usually cautionary tales about morality (Cassiopeia, Niobe, Midas and so on) or exaltationary ones about personal excellence (various hero tales).
I still wouldn't discount them, because they do have those lower-level kinds of stories and ideas, but of course you should play with whatever concepts are most interesting to you and your group. :)
I would love to see some kind of effort, maybe not just from you guys, but an overall effort from the community, Ink Monkey-style, to build some kind of register of mythological critters for different parts of the world and different Pantheons.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they don't need stats, because each game will have its own idea how those should be balanced, but they could just be written up and listed with ideas of what kind of powers they oughta have.
Yeah, we had it up on the list for a while but it didnt get many votes. Its one of the projects im more excited about. (especially more then stupid eastern pantheons).
DeleteI voted for it...
DeleteAlso, agreed. Stupid eastern Pantheons.
...I like the Eastern Pantheons.
DeleteI wouldn't be nearly as excited about the Eastern Pantheons if they weren't already on the site, and the Amatsukami in general have been huge within my stories, both as an ST and a player, so their overhaul is really important to me.
I guess I'm just a fan of 'clean the house you've got before you build an extra room.' Since the Amatsukami and Celestial Bureaucracy are already on the site, I'd like to see them fixed up before moving on. The Nemetondevos...to be honest couldn't care less what happens to them.
Poor continental Celts. Unloved in the Roman empire, unloved now.
DeleteBrings a tear to your eyes...
DeleteThe Continental Celts deserve theirown writeup right after the Roman and Etruscans get theirs.
DeleteThe Etruscans, if I remember, there is not much historical on them, like not many records. The Romans, heh, need no write up. Technically, it can be argued that the Greeks and Romans are so close that there is really no need for separation. In my opinion.
DeleteI want to see more Pacific Islanders in my opinion.
Beastiary ! Lets do this!
ReplyDelete