Question: I'm still not convinced the Morrigan has Manipulation. She disguises herself from mortals, Cu Chuchulainn and the Dagda, but none of them are known for being very perceptive. She could have been using Social Chameleon or Perfect Imposter. Are there more examples of her being manipulative?
Well, if you aren't convinced by our reasoning, we probably can't make you be. The Morrigan has an uncanny ability to disguise herself so that no one ever sees through it, and she does it in several stories, establishing it as a clear pattern of legendary behavior. Sure, the people she does it to aren't renowned for their perceptive powers, but they also aren't renowned for being bad at perception, either, and the Morrigan is consistently awesome at her undercover skillz in either case.
That sounds like plenty of good reasons to us, and we don't have a backup argument prepared in case someone doesn't agree. Not that everyone has to agree with us all the time, of course. You'll just think we're wrong and we'll just think you're wrong and everyone will go on being mildly offended at the internet.
However, I do want to address the second half of your question, because it made both John and me say, "Huhwha?" when we read it. There must be some confusion, because if there's one thing the Morrigan definitely isn't using to disguise herself at every turn, it's Social Chameleon and Perfect Imposter.
Those knacks just don't do that. They allow the Scion or god who uses them to fit into social situations and seem like they belong there, but they don't disguise them or somehow prevent people who know them from recognizing them. They're knacks that allow you to know approximately what to say, how to act and what kind of accent to put on to avoid anyone realizing that you're a wedding crasher or stranger in a strange land, but that's all. They make you good at blending into the crowd in terms of general mannerisms and common knowledge.
But they do not disguise you. Someone who knows you is still going to know you; your face did not disappear or change, and the fact that you intuitively know which fork to use and understand the local popular view of the people in charge is not somehow obscuring it. There are many, many powers in the game that make it impossible for people you know to figure out who you are - Manipulation and Illusion have most of them, as well as scattered powers throughout Appearance, Darkness, Magic and so forth - but these Wits knacks are not any of them. That doesn't even make sense; how does being epically quick on the uptake make you suddenly look like somebody else? That's not a power that would even fit into the skillset here. And if it did, holy hell, that would be insanely overpowered - all I have to do is take these knacks and I can basically be just as good at disguising myself as someone who dumped a bunch of XP into Manipulation or Illusion?
To use Sowiljr as an example because he commonly uses these knacks, he could absolutely pop up Perfect Imposter, stride into a hall full of Vanir gods and mingle like there's no tomorrow. He would know exactly what to say, how to respond and what to avoid so that none of the Vanir (assuming they didn't beat his roll) realized he wasn't one of them. He'd blend seamlessly into the crowd, and if some of them thought it was a little odd that he didn't look quite right, well, they'd brush it off. However, if his occasional nemesis Sverrir happened to be there, he would still instantly recognize Sowiljr and know who he was, because he's met him before, knows what he looks like and is fully aware that he isn't Vanir. The fact that Sowiljr knows when to raise his ale and how to gossip about the forest-god politics of the day is not going to somehow stop Sverrir from recognizing a dude he has spoken to and interacted with before. Sowiljr is still there in all his glory, regardless of his current ability to act like he was raised from birth in the forests of Vanaheim, and Sverrir knows what he looks and sounds like. At best, Sverrir might be mildly confused about when Geoff got so good at Vanir society, or think that maybe he was infiltrating Vanir society all along, but he won't not know that it's Sowiljr.
It's the same story for the Morrigan. She could use Perfect Imposter to hang out with a bunch of random human peasants, and they wouldn't know she wasn't a human peasant, too. But she could not use those knacks to prevent Cu Chulainn or the Dagda from recognizing her, because she's still the Morrigan, no matter how peasanty she's acting. She looks, sounds and smells like herself unless she does something to alter that. She has to actually use the powers in the game that disguise you - the chief among which is Manipulation - in order to not be recognized by people who know her.
As we said back in the dawn of time when we first talked about it, we know that Manipulation seems like it's a weird choice for the Morrigan, who has all the subtlety of a maddened steer in a Swarovski outlet. But she's definitely doing something that can fool even fellow gods into believing she's not what she appears to be, and Manipulation seems by far the most likely candidate to us. When the Morrigan decides to play pretend, the only way you're going to see through it is if she decides to reveal herself in order to taunt and/or stab you.
Its kind of like how my character did Social Chameleon. We got thrown into Yomi at Demi-God cause we are looking for the 'Japanese Batman' or how he likes to say he is like(He has Justice, but he tries to pervert the rulings for vengeance a lot. Its funny how hard he tries.) Anyways, my character, being stealth, does not have much in Wits, but I did get two epics and three knacks.
ReplyDeleteSocial Chameleon is one of them. I knew Japanese, but the way the ST decribed the area, it was a mix of new and old style of talking and that my character did not know most customs and the language is confusing at best. That and looking like a foreigner did not help my case. So, using the ability on my armor to change itself, I make into something traditional looking, use shadow mask to hid my face in shadows and wrap my face up with some wrap to look like I had a plague. All I needed to do was hide my hands in the sleeves and I could get some info for the group.
Though at first I was asked to 'babysit' the Greek as he tried to talk to a boarded up house. Cause Yomi does not get many outsiders visiting. lol. It was funny though as he tried to coax people out of the house, our best Charisma person and the person who could get the info has the worse social skills in the group. 2 Charisma, 5 Manipulation, 2 Appearance. No epics what so ever. Everyone else in the group has a minimum of 2-3 epics in one stat, at least.
My reasoning (not the question asker though) for Morrigan not having Manipulation is that while, yes, she disguises herself, I don't see "being good at disguises" as necessarily translating into Manipulation. That's the *only* sneaky thing she ever does and it really isn't.. sneaky. It's just putting on a disguise. No one ever suspects her because, well, why would you suspect that?
ReplyDeleteI think her disguises could simply be a use of Illusion or, even less sneakily, Avatars and Animal Forms.
Yes, the disguise by itself is not really manipulative, but thats not the only thing. She also has to be convincing to show false facts as true to Gods. Basically, think of this. You have a character decent at Perception, like he can judge people pretty well. Then I come in with my trickster guy, wanting to prove that you are not that good, but you are blind to things that are right in front of you. So my character puts on a disguise as an old man. I then go running to your character pretending to be an old man and cause I am -Manipulating- you into believing I am an old man I tell you my grand daughter, a scion who was taken by wolves, was taken and you are the only one who could save her. You do it cause of maybe feeling sorry or think you can get with the girl, it does not matter. So you do that, maybe the girl was never there and I was trying to kill you. Maybe the girl was real and my quest I was forced in to was saving her and I made you do it, not me.
DeleteThat, my good friend, is manipulation with disguises and I would say that falls under Illusion/Appearance and Manipulation.
Man, go to bed, wake up to ninety comments.
DeleteKyle and Mat are hitting the nail on the head: there are lots of ways to disguise yourself, but you have to have Manipulation to sell it. You could look like a giant hybrid octopus incredibly convincingly, but if you don't have the Manipulation to back it up, everyone will know you aren't one. They won't necessarily know what you are unless they have awesome Perception, but they'll know you aren't what you're pretending to be. It's written all over your gelatinous face and dripping off every eight-armed move you make. You may be able to put on the suit, but you don't know how convince everyone you're supposed to be wearing it.
Social Chameleon/Perfect Imposter could solve that only if you wanted to remain an anonymous part of a faceless crowd (i.e., if the only thing you wanted to convince people of was that you belonged in that social situation). Charging people as various shapechanged animals or having long conversations is not really in the cards there - you're intentionally making yourself stick out, which is the opposite of the point of those knacks.
I do think a lot of the Morrigan's shapechanging probably falls under Appearance/Illusion/Magic. But she doesn't do the second two enough to really justify giving her the Avatar, and the first wouldn't explain all her ridiculous bullshit. In the end, we decided she probably has some Illusion or Magic, and a whole ton of Manipulation to back up whatever she's doing.
It's because we are so picky about associations that she ended up with Manipulation for us. :) She obviously doesn't have a strong enough case for Illusion or Magic, and Appearance definitely doesn't cover all this bullshit. But one of her strongest mythic patterns is being a disguise-ninja, making it important enough that it needed be addressed, and Manipulation was therefore the best stat available to represent that.
DeleteDisguising oneself sounds pretty schemey to me... if you think of it as a form of subterfuge Manipulation begins to make more sense. Lying is also a form of subterfuge, and that uses Manipulation. With a disguise, you're manipulating people into thinking you're someone you're not.
ReplyDeleteExactly. And if you're disguised but bad at Manipulation, you're just obviously someone wearing a bad disguise, and probably giggling or acting out of character the whole way. Just putting on a disguise is easy; selling it requires Manipulation.
DeleteI think there might be confusion on your end about this question (There was a big discussion recently between a bunch of us on Skype about this very topic). I don't think any of us think that just using Perfect Imposter alone is going to fool people.
ReplyDeleteLet's take the scenario where Sowljr is hanging out among the Vanir. Alone, using Perfect Imposter means that if he doesn't act out of the ordinary, then he'll be fine, but if someone who knows him, such as Sverrir, spots him, he'll know who it is...
BUT, let's say Sowljr, or anyone in that situation, uses Undeniable Resemblance/Unusual Alteration? Or an Illusion Boon? Then Sverrir isn't going to immediately out Sowljr, unless he has more Perception than Sowljr has Appearance or Illusion or whathaveyou.
If Sowljr was going to somehow make himself look like, say, Njord or Freyr, then while Perfect Imposter is necessary, it's not close to enough, and he'd need oodles of Manipulation to pull it off.
Manipulation certainly can be a major key to being a master of disguise. Certainly necessary if you intend to impersonate a specific person, and for long stretches of time. However, from what I can tell, the only real instances of Manipulation in the Morrigan's case are making her marks think she's Not The Morrigan. And, if she looks like she's Not The Morrigan, which can be a function of Appearance, and her marks aren't packing equal or greater Perception than her, then acting like she's Not The Morrigan isn't that complicated.
In fact, giving her Manipulation seems a bit out of character for you guys, since you folks tend to be really picky about how Gods qualify for associated powers.
To expand on this a little further, we can try to use a hypothetical question.
DeleteThe Morrigan is hanging out at a ford washing some clothes. She uses Appearance to make herself look, sound, smell, feel like an old lady. Then she uses Social Chameleon/Perfect Imposter to put some effort into acting like a local washer woman.
If the Dagda or anyone else without oodles of Perception walks by, he's got no reason to suspect she was anything but a washer woman, right? SC/PI pretty much prevents it. No manipulation required as long as she makes a reasonable attempt to act like an old lady washing her clothes.
I already addressed above for Royce, but here's the key for Manipulation: if you don't have it, your disguises fail. They do. Every time. It doesn't matter how awesome they look, because you are failing to sell them. You're acting out of character and giving yourself away, or you're obviously yourself in spite of the form you're wearing, or you're just so bad at this that nobody believes you're what you say you are even if you look convincing. To pull off a disguise - of any kind, whether washer woman, rampaging steer or peasant queen - you have to be able to convincingly pretend to be your alter ego, and that's what Manipulation is for. Without it, even if people don't know exactly what's up with you, they know something's not right here and you definitely aren't what you seem to be.
DeleteThink of every comedy movie you've ever seen in which someone puts on someone else's costume and then does the world's worst impression of them as they try to avoid being caught. That's a person using Appearance/Illusion/shapechanging but who doesn't have any Manipulation.
I can honestly say that if you are planning on tricking anyone in this game you have to have Manipulation. If not, then what you are doing, your emotions and thoughts, are written on your face. If you speak to anyone and try to lie, about anything, it wil be readily apparent that you are lying to those people/gods. Another important thing to consider, is that while Cu Chuchulainn and the Dagda are not known for being incredibly perceptive, Aengus is. If Aengus were anywhere near where the Morrigan was trying to lie (or not near if he just so happened to have clairvoyance up or he was just in that terra or realm at the time), he would immediately know, and she would have to deal with him. Now in our game we deal with all the pantheons not just one, so there is also a chance that someone like good ol' Odin might see what is going on in Irish town and decide to use that to his best advantage as well. So for the Morrigan to "get away" with these machinations and hidden plays she would have to be exceptional at Manipulation so that no one ever suspected it was her.
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