Question: How do you pick what a pantheon might facepalm over and what they accept whole heartedly? I mean, Nihonjinron seems pretty cringe-worthy, but you implied they might follow it. What do you think the dividing line between what might be picked up by the pantheon and them just looking down at the mortals and shaking their heads is?
In most cases, pantheons really aren't united enough to say absolutely. Big overarching concepts kind of come down to two options: either it's a massively important concept that the entire culture is founded on (like sacrifice for the Aztlanti or pursuit of the truth for the Yazata), in which case everybody probably agrees on it, or it's something like nihonjinron, which is a smaller issue that different gods probably have different opinions on. To use that example, I'd assume that the courtly, old-guard kami like Amaterasu and Hachiman probably do subscribe to that theory, as it's one that would appeal to their personalities, but that others, like Raiden, probably don't bother to care about the issue one way or the other.
Keep in mind, also, that divine morals are not the same as human morals in most cases. We may look at something like nihonjinron and think, "Oh, man, that's kind of racist and weird," and be turned off by it, but a god, especially an ancient one attached to an insular culture that doesn't play well with others, may not have any problem with it. The best way to get a feel for a pantheon's moral compass is to look first at their Virtues; the more Virtues a given subject pisses off, the more likely it is that that pantheon is strongly opposed to it, while if it doesn't tickle any of their Virtues, there's a much higher chance that they don't care. A god of the Amatsukami who has Harmony and Valor would probably find someone's fury-filled murder of an enemy's children appalling, while a god of the Elohim who has Courage and Vengeance probably wouldn't bat an eye.
Every god has a different, distinct personality, however, so you can't always rely on the pantheon's Virtues for all of your predictions. Yeah, the Devas don't have Vengeance and are traditionally pretty chill, but dudes like Indra and Shiva are still more likely to fly off the handle and wreck someone for insulting them than people like Brahma or Parvati. And while most of the Pesedjet would probably freak out over a giant oil spill in the Mediterranean thanks to their Harmony, it's probably a safe bet that someone like Set doesn't care nearly as much as someone like Hathor.
In the end, you have to use your own judgment as a Storyteller to decide who's going to react to what and how, using the basic tools of Virtues, personality and what those gods have done in past stories. If you're a player, you can use the same knowledge to try to figure out what the gods you interact with might think or do in certain situations (though keep in mind that if your character has one dot of Intelligence and no Academics, he probably doesn't know the first thing about Loki and what he might or might not get pissed off about!).
Nihonjinron is probably what drove the Japanese to side with the Natzis during world war II. I know you can't stand the Yankee pantheon, but the creators of Scion probably wanted a pantheon to espouse not only freedom from physical tyranny but the racial tyranny espoused by Nihonjinron and the Nazi dogma. Since the Yakee's don't exist in your universe, which pantheon is diametrically opposed to this racial view?
ReplyDeleteHonestly? Probably none of them. Gods, in the sense that they're ancient beings that represent their cultures' beliefs, are always going to believe that their pantheon is the supreme one and that their people are the most important ones. They're not worried about being racist or politically incorrect or hurting others' feelings. The Greco-Roman gods, who routinely steamrolled other cultures and told them they were stupid and actually worshiping Greek gods under different names, are not really any less racist than the Japanese, at least in human terms. The Irish, who kicked the Fir Bolg off most of Ireland just because they wanted it to be Tuathaland and had declared themselves superior, are not being particularly less racist than the Aesir when they're performing similar conquests (in fact, historically, the Aesir are one of the less racist pantheons despite their treatment of the Vanir - they just get painted that way by Scion because of the Nazi movement in Germany). If you asked Huitzilopochtli, I'm pretty sure he would straight-up say that non-Aztec people exist to be sacrifices. If you asked Amaterasu, she'd probably say that of course the Japanese are superior to other races. It's something that humanity has always done, assuming that their own people are the best people (we still do it now, all over the place, automatically - nationalism and patriotism are forms of the same idea), and gods are just gigantic cosmic mirrors of their people.
DeleteOr, to make the point another way, it's not really that gods are racist. It's that racism isn't really a concept for them. Of course they think their own people are the best. Of course Zeus thinks he's the best king god ever to exist, and by extension the Greek people are the greatest ever to exist. Horus and Baal and Shango all probably think that. It's not that they're intentionally being bad people; it's that that idea has been around and a part of almost all world cultures for so long that I doubt any of them would think of it as being bad or wrong. (Which can be a lot of fun in games - witness Geoff's ongoing dramas with the Aztecs who are seriously just not okay with this white dude that keeps coming to their family reunions.)
If you're looking for the most racially even-handed (or at least tolerant) of pantheons by human standards, it's probably the Bogovi. They're in the middle of Europe and used to being constantly invaded, visited, and interacted with by other cultures, and they've taken more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach than others. Even they aren't blameless racially sensitive lambs, though - hell, their word for non-Slavs is nemtsi, which literally means dumb (that is, unable to speak, because they don't speak Slavic).
Which doesn't mean individual gods can't be on board with being racially sensitive. I'm sure folks like Guanyin are more likely to be sensitive to those kinds of things, because Guanyin is about compassion and love for humanity. You'll need to make a judgment call on each specific god - some may be more accepting of foreigners than others.
DeleteNot being racist is a VERY new thing. Like...maybe last 50-100 years at maximum. And it still is, across the world, much less popular among people then just being racist. Racist doesnt necessarily mean you cant work with other races, or that you need to hate them all, but much like humanity for the past 10,000 years, gods are more then likely all racists.
DeleteWouldn't more Ancient gods just.. well know nihonjinron is bullshit? Presumably Amaterasu remembers when her people conquered the Islands(I mean the Ainu legend is straight up The people of the Sun came and took our lands). Presumably Susanoo would remember when he was a lone Patron god of Izumo. That their court was reconfigured to be more Chinese like during the Heian period. That other countries have four Distinct seasons.
ReplyDeleteSecondly it would seem to unduely limit character concepts if Amatersu subscribed to such theories, I mean how can you have any Amatersu scion mixes that way?
Oh, they might know that certain facets of cultural legends like nihonjinron are silly - that whole myth about Japanese people having extra-long digestive tracts, for example, is pretty easily debunked by anyone with Health. But even if she knows a bunch of those things are hogswaddle, the metaphorical core of it - that Japanese gods are better than other gods, and Japanese people better than other people - seems like something she'd have no trouble believing. She's not exactly the kind of lady who's going to call up other goddesses and tell them they're just as hot as she is. Gods, with only a few exceptions, are prideful beings; they have a lot of pride in their own pantheons and people, so the nihonjinron myths are probably pretty useful to Amaterasu and company, even if she doesn't believe all their silliness herself.
DeleteI'm not sure that the conquest of the Ainu would really dent anyone's idea of the Japanese being better than they are. If anything, the Japanese gods probably just look at it as proof that they are clearly more awesome than the lame gods that were here before.
Amaterasu's one of those gods that I'd be very surprised to hear about ever having many mixed children. Which doesn't mean you can't do it if you have a kick-ass character concept! It just means you have to come up with a reason that it happened, whether she had some kind of master plan that involved unavoidable fraternizing with the gaijin, somebody mind-whammied her into it or anything else you can think of that might explain it.
I expect all gods to think "I am the best" at whatever they connect themselves with. I don't doubt Aesir are pretty happy with the ressurgence in faith in them, same with the Slavs. However I presume both groups start facepalming when someone prays to them to make the Jews Go away. I would expect similar statements to work with the Amatsukami
ReplyDeleteAs for the Ainu, one of the nihonjinron myths is that the Japanese are so native to Japan that they are a parallel evolution to homo sapiens Sapiens. That they are theirown species.
This gets into a related question, do gods get upset when they pray to them wrong? Is Amatersu wringing her hands every time a neopagan uses her name or those american shinto? Was Zeus upset that they didn't have a High Priest do the cerimony at the Athens games or was he all(Its me I am awesome!)?
Why would you assume they facepalm? It would be a completely reasonable prayer during the time they're people lived. Please Mars help me murder all the gauls, please help us exterminate them. In thors name I descend upon this village to rape and pillage it.
ReplyDeleteThe romans especially enslaved anyone they came in contact with because they didnt count as people. And thinking that for some reason the gods had an enlightened post-modern view of racism that they never shared with their people seems impossible.
I was using that for short hand, traditionally your Antisemetic Neopagans tend to believe antisemetic conspiracies(Plus the slavs don't seem the type to get that involved, more the give you the strength to perserve on yourown). Wanting to overcome your foes, I see, throwing in random bits like "jews are shapeshifting lizardmen who drink blood and I must fight them" should in my mind get a facepalm.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind the Amatsukami should be "the Japanese are special because they worship us and follow our sacred ways" not because they have an "extra bit of intestine" or something like that. Cultural chavanisms that are much harder to objectively disprove.
I just sort of assumed the Dodec hold less to blood and more to cultural ties. Its ok to hunt barbarians who pray to foreign gods and act crazy slavery is not just acceptable but a moral imperative. But when those same people are praying to Jupiter and consider themselves Romans(even if they have Gaulish "blood") they are no longer so foreign.
1) Well yes, there is a huge difference between racists and conspiracy theorists. There are many many people who hate jews who dont think they're lizardmen. So gods probably do think those people are crazy, but that doesnt make them not racists.(and just like humanity, there are probably some gods who do think maybe irish people are chipmunks running human suits).
ReplyDelete2)Trying to figure out what you mean in the 2nd pagagraph, but I cant find a definition for chavanism so im not sure what you mean.
3)If you go historically, no. You are not roman, in any way unless you are a roman citizen by birth. You are forced to worship their gods when they conquer you, but they'll never consider you people. They were very much about roman/greek blood greater then all others. Thats why they conquered most of the known planet. Well, one of many reasons.
#3 is not true. I would recommend reading this blog post and the associated series: https://acoup.blog/2021/06/25/collections-the-queens-latin-or-who-were-the-romans-part-ii-citizens-and-allies/
Delete1 Alot of nihonjinron comes off as in the Irish are chipmunks in rubber suits category. Racial(or cultural) Supremecy I am not questioning, just how much of the really obviously wrong stuff are gods assumed to accept.
ReplyDelete2 I was assuming that Divine belief in the supremecy of their chosen people is less based on particular genetic traits than the fact that they are "The most civilized people" That the Japanese to the Amatsukami are special because of the thousands of years of worship and reverence, because they follow the morals that the Kami set down, and not because they have extra bits of stomach or are a unique evolutionary path. OR simply they don't need explanations other than "these are our people, that makes them great because we chose them!"
3, Well a follow up how do the gods see conversions? Does Athena still sill Athenians as the most perfect of people or has she spread her views as the Grecosphere expanded?
A great story would be modern gods working to bring racial views into the 20th century and trying to break the racist views of other gods.
ReplyDelete