Baby Boomers

Quote: Since y'all have House Ruled everything ELSE to be More Awesomer, have you changed how the process of obtaining your own Favored Abilities and Associated Powers works when the PCs become Gods?

Yes, we have! As you can see from our PC god pages, some of them already have a few things associated to pass down to their children, and their character sheets have already departed from their parents' setups. It goes like this:

When a PC gets to god, they'll get their six highest Purviews or Epic Attributes associated. If they had more than that from their parent, they lose the extra. Similarly, their favored Abilities are now their six highest ones, regardless of what they originally had from their parent. If they have more than six tied for highest, they can choose which ones they want associated (but once chosen, those are "locked in" and can't be changed later unless they go up in Legend and that thing is no longer among their highest). Favored Abilities automatically pass down if the new god makes their own Scion, but Purviews and Epic Attributes are only associated in the sense that the PC gets the XP discount for buying them, not in the sense that they are passed down to children of their own just yet. That comes later.

As for Scions of their own, a PC who is hitting god chooses one Epic Attribute or Purview that they want to get the maximum level in first; that becomes associated with them for purposes of their children. Every god, even brand new at Legend 9, therefore starts with the ability to grant at least one thing to a Scion if they want to make one. After that, when they go up to Legend 10 they get to add another maximum Epic Attribute or Purview to become associated for children (if they have more than one available, their Fatebonds may have a say in which one it is), and they do so again at Legend 11. When they hit Legend 12, they don't get one for free, but they now have the ability to gain anything associated with them as long as they purchase its Avatar or Ultimate.

So every god at Legend 12 automatically has three associated Purviews or Epic Attributes, with the ability to gain more as they buy Ultimates and Avatars. (This is also a useful benchmark for figuring out Legend ratings of minor gods on the fly - if they don't have more than two things associated, well, they're probably Legend 10, then). This allows even new god-PCs to start getting in on the Scion game on their own if they want to, creating potentially useful or powerful Scions without having to hand them over to a higher-Legend god. Our PCs haven't done so yet, but I suspect some of them will soon (my bet is on Sowiljr to take the first plunge).

We've mentioned it before in other posts, but it bears repeating: Epic Attributes are not automatically associated with you at eight dots in our game, but require you to get the Ultimate, just as you need the Avatar for a purview. Since you're getting some Purviews associated with you at lower Legend ratings anyway, there's no need to lower the threshold on Epic Attributes just to give PCs something to pass down to their children, and at any rate we never liked the system. Gods tend to mythically be much more often associated with Purviews than with Epic Attributes anyway, and it didn't make sense for the one to be so much easier to get than the other.

Big Cat Safari

Question: How do Nergal and Sekhmet feel about each other? They're both destructive deities associated with sun, heat, plague, and lions. There's a lot of overlap between the two but with how violent and aggresive they are, I can't tell if that means they would get along or be at each others throats.

I think you've pretty much hit it on the head - Nergal and Sekhmet are both highly volatile deities and they share so much in common that it's inevitable that sparks will fly if they happen to be around one another. There's a pretty even chance that they'd have a great time trying to outdo one another or indulging in inappropriate sexytimes, or that they'd decide to kill one another. Actually, it seems most likely to me that they'd do A and follow that up immediately with B. It seems likely that Nergal might be able to control the situation a little bit better than Sekhmet, as he's historically more self-aware, but then again, "controlling" a situation with Sekhmet in it is kind of a comedic idea.

It sounds like a fun problem to play with in a game, particularly since the pantheons have to cooperate with one another and it's more likely than ever now that they might cross paths. It does, however, seem like something that the lion-gods' respective handlers might be on the watch for - I can almost guarantee Ptah's not going to let Sekhmet run chaotically wild with Nergal unless he absolutely can't spare the attention to stop her, and it's anyone's guess whether or not Ereshkigal might decide to get possessive.

Personally, I'd be more worried about Sekhmet getting together with Tezcatlipoca. There's an unstoppable team - one engine of destruction and one smooth motherfucker who will have no problems pointing her wherever he wants.

The Sincerest Form of Flattery

Question: So y'all are pretty awesome at coming up with things for Scion and having them be nifty. Are there any Pantheons, Purviews, Knacks, Boons, whatever from other folks that you've just really fallen in love with, even if they needed some tweaking? (Everything needs tweaking.)

It's sometimes hard to see our influences since we do tweak everything so heavily - even if the original idea was someone else's we're prone to rearranging, changing and poking at it until it fits better for us, which sometimes leaves us with a very different end product. But there are definitely other folks in the Scion community whose work we've loved and stolen (with loving permission, of course - one of the great things about the online community for this game is that everybody's very sharing about allowing their ideas to be used and abused in others' games).

We have no choice but to laud Brent, a rockstar on the forums and the owner of the Modern Mythos site, who also just so happens to be a real-life friend of ours from college. We've exchanged endless emails batting ideas and mechanics back and forth, discussing the concepts that underlie Scion, and agreeing and disagreeing on all kinds of things, from Virtues to Boons to pantheon members to Fate mechanics. We may not get to play with him regularly anymore (though he just made a cameo in Eastern Promise last week, much to our delight), but he's been invaluable in being both a great sounding board and an awesome source of creativity. Specific things we've stolen from him include the Death boon Bleak Census, the Magic spell Bad Penny, the Samsara boon Tapasya, and he's done a great deal of collaborative work with us, most notably on the Heku purview. Basically he is every kind of cool.

Then, of course, there's Stephen Oppelt, better known to the world of Scion by the ridiculously inaccurate moniker TerriblyUncreative (check out his tattoos, he's a rad dude). In addition to being the awesome artist who comes up with things like portraits and logos for the pantheons in our Downloads section, he's a boundless source of creative boons, knacks and ideas, which he is always willing to share, discuss, and then let us hack up with machetes for our own purposes. There are buckets of boons and knacks on JSR that owe at least a the beginning of their existence to him, including the Believe Your Own Press, Bezoar, Commandment and Sense Invocation knacks and the boons Circle of Life, Hive Mind, Friendly Fire and Shadow Boxer. He also puts up with a pretty unreasonable number of emails about new pantheons and the nitty gritty details of what we're doing with them. He is a Scion hero.

Finally, a large number of the basic ideas behind our version of the Prophecy purview comes from the original skeleton of Rolfe Bergstrom's; we don't know him personally, but we knew we wanted Prophecy to be a purview in its own right from day one and we loved a lot of the concepts he brought to bear when working on the same idea.

The folks above may be our biggest Scion buddies and heroes, but they're not the only ones; the Scion community is full of excellent writers, thinkers and enthusiasts, and there are tons more people who have sparked ideas with their own homebrews, discussions or just ideas thrown around on the forums or in emails with us. Our players deserve a lot of credit, too; many times, they've come to us to say, "Hey, shouldn't I be able to do X in this purview?" or "I had this great idea, what do you think of Y?" that has gotten us thinking and eventually resulted in adding something to the shared toybox. Even those in the community who write things that don't work for us are always a welcome sight, because they're people doing things for this game we all love, and we always want to encourage the hell out of that.

We do a lot of work here at JSR, no doubt, but no website is an island, or words to that effect. There are some amazing other creators out there, and we salute them. Go tell them how great they are.

Blood Sugar Sex Magic

Question: Why does Freya have such a reputation for being a whore? Sure, Loki says she is, but he says that to all the girls. Does she just get a bad rap for being Vanir?

Loki does indeed say that to all the girls. Smoothest silver tongue in Asgard in action right there.

There are a lot of reasons that Freya is associated with sex. She's a fertility goddess, for one thing, which usually goes hand in hand - her brother Freyr is every bit as sex-connoted as she is (see hilarious statues of him) for the same reason. She's also renowned for her beauty and sex appeal and prayed to for help in love affairs, which usually comes with plenty of sex connotations for any goddess.

But Freya's not just representational; she's also actually having all the sex! Sex everywhere! You might be able to ignore Loki's claims that Freya has slept with everybody in Asgard and also bangs her brother on a regular basis (though can you ever really ignore Loki? He's exactly the kind of bastard who will totally tell the truth when it's that much fun), but that's far from the only time she gets down with her bad self. The most obvious example is the story of her sleeping with multiple dwarves in order to get them to give her the necklace Brisingamen, and nobody tries to pretend that didn't happen. (Also, damn, there Loki was telling the truth that time.) There's plenty of other textual evidence, too, including mentions of Freya sleeping with Odin and going out at night to prowl "like a bitch in heat."

So Freya is, indeed, having all the sex. This is understood in Norse myth. But the negative connotations attached to it are probably more modern than she is; it's more likely that it was originally a very strong part of her worship and a source of power. One of Freya's most important functions is as the mistress of seidr, Norse sorcery, and there is a heavy sexual component attached to the practice of seidr; accounts of rituals include bawdy songs being sung and aphrodisiac herbs being consumed, and Odin warns in the Eddas that magic-using women are both incredibly seductive and extremely dangerous to sleep with, as doing so gives them power over the man in question. Even the wand carried by seidr practitioners is considered by many scholars to have been an intentional representation of a phallus.

Which is not to say that Norse culture was originally totally fine with this and that all the sidelong glances and uncomfortable coughing on the subject came from Christian rewriters of the myths; there's clearly some ambivalence on the subject in Asgard. Loki obviously thinks it's something that's shameful enough that she might at least be embarrassed by it, and Odin confiscated Brisingamen from her in punishment when he learned how she'd gotten it. But nobody seems to try to restrict her from getting her groove on, either - certainly her absentee husband Od doesn't ever bother (or, indeed, show up in any of the stories we have about her), and the general feeling in most myths is that, well, yeah, Freya's having lots of sex. That's what Freya does. Njord even goes to bat for her by saying that there's nothing wrong with her having lovers, though considering that he's Vanir and thus prone to having no problem with things like sibling marriage, he may have slightly different definitions of what is and isn't sexually acceptable than the rest of the Aesir do.

So really, it's not that Freya's some kind of horrible low self-esteem trainwreck. It's that, like most love goddesses, sex is something she represents and embodies, so it's natural for it to be a big part of her stories, especially since it's also a part of the magic rituals she's known to practice. She's like an Aphrodite who also gets big power boosts from having sex. It's not surprising that she's up for it pretty frequently.

And considering her reaction to Thor declaring she was going to have to sleep with a giant to save his ass, I would not assume she's willing to jump just anybody's bones. Just make sure you hide your pretty boys when you go to Asgard.

And we're back!

Huzzah! We're back online and hope to remain so for the foreseeable future. We'd like to thank everybody who was encouraging, and also give a special shoutout to Aynie, who went above and beyond the call of duty to help out. You guys are the best.

Now it's back to posts about ancient sex and arguments about associated powers. Stay tuned.

Just a heads up!

Hey everyone,

Tomorrow or the day after, John's Scion Resources (and this blog, etc.) will be going down for a few days. We are working on our upcoming wedding in June, and had to put a deposit on stuff that left us with not enough money to pay for the website.

So, we'll be down for a little bit until our next paycheck gets here (or, worst-case scenario, the following paycheck). In the meantime, we'll keep working on stuff, and hopefully have lots of fun things for you when we come back. We appreciate your patience. Keep coming up with fun questions while we're gone.

John + Anne

Chastity: Ya dig?

Question: So dig it, John. Here's one for ya. I know you said that some females have Sacred Vows; like Athena. Based on what I've read, though, would it be possible for Artemis to fall for a male and want to settle down? According to the book, she simply prefers the touch of women and she made Zeus take a vow not to wed her. That doesn't mean that she took a chastity vow, ya feel me?

Possibly? The book saying she prefers the touch of women is bullshit... that's just... modern lesbian propaganda? Possibly chauvinistic explanation for her not liking dudes? But it has no basis in... anything mythically related.

But has she taken a chastity vow? I'm not sure. We dont have one "on file" as it were, mythically speaking. However, we do know that she doesn't like dudes seeing her naked.

Could she fall in love, though? I suppose it falls in the realm of possibility.

Show Us Your Ink

Question: What's your view on Birthright tattoos? Do you have any special rules for those, or do you stat them the same as normal relics?

In general, they're the same as normal relics; they cost an extra Birthright dot to reflect that they can't be lost (barring unpleasant skinning extravaganzas, I guess), but past that they do what any other relic might do.

We do suggest that PCs try to make their tattoos culture-appropriate - the Japanese have a long tradition of permanent body art, but the Aztecs used paint and other washables instead, for example - but since these are mostly modern people from modern cultures, anything's fair game if it's cool and they have a fun idea for it.

We've had several neat tattoos in our games, from John Shimoda's sword that can be pulled from his arm to become a real weapon to Sangria's sunburst that absorbs damage that her children would have taken to Vivian's big black PROPERTY OF TEZCATLIPOCA brand that gave her way too many Darkness bonuses (she made some poor choices). I'd love to hear about some cool tattoo relics from you guys in the comments.

Epicurean Delights

Question: What role does the food of the gods (Ambrosia, Amrita, Peaches of Immortality, etc.) play in your game? Does it confer immortality or godhood upon mortals who manage to consume it?

While divine food has not yet been one of the biggest themes in our games, it has made appearances; both Aiona and Terminus have of course tasted ambrosia upon their arrival on Olympus, and Sowiljr, Vala, Folkwardr and Sverrir have to return to Asgard at least once per year to have one of Idun's apples lest they start feeling the physical effects of going without for too long. (Several of our Norse PCs strongly suspect that these aren't Idun's apples at all but some kind of brainwashing replacement from Odin, but they can't prove it and they're no match for his powers of persuasion.)

Such highly magical items are always a questionable point in Scion; do mortals really become immortals if they taste ambrosia? Will Norse gods really age and die if they don't get a steady diet of Idun's fruit? Generally, if there are myths to support it, I'd say yes, because part of the charm of Scion is its determination to make all myths true. Ambrosia probably would make a mortal into an immortal if some was somehow stolen from Olypmus and given to one, though what form that might take could vary from game to game - the simplest and least likely to cause headaches would be to rule that it makes them into a Legendary Mortal (Legend 1, permanently, with no option to increase) and gives them the Eternal Youth knack (or an innate power that functions exactly the same).

Ambrosia's actually the only one I'd worry about for that, though. Amrita is actually said to be granted to dedicated followers by gods fairly frequently, and while it's heavenly and delicious, it doesn't automatically grant immortality. The Peaches of Immortality do, but Xiwangmu is so notoriously tight-fisted with them that you'd need some Sun Wukong-level shenanigans to have a chance of stealing one. I imagine that Idun's apples and Goibniu's cauldron of mead probably confer longevity but not true immortality, as even the gods are said to need to keep eating them lest they begin to age mortally. Soma and haoma are certainly sacred and mysterious mythic substances, but they have a long history of being eaten by mortals (who usually go on to hallucinate religiously), so they likely confer other benefits (level 1 Prophecy, perhaps, or else they're just drugs that make mortals think they're seeing visions). And there are plenty of legendary, divine foods, like the golden apples of the Hesperides, that don't seem to actually have a mechanical effect other than being very rare and cool (and probably getting you into trouble with someone).

Divine food can be a fun filip to add to any game, but in terms of looking for ways to make mortals immortal, it's really kind of not worth it. There are already easy ways for PCs to do that - Control Aging in the Health purview and Confer Knack in the Guardian purview are both quick and much more painless ways of making sure a mortal stays fresh-faced as long as you want them to. I'm all for using heavenly food as a fun element in games, but when you're looking for ways to make humans immortal, it's one of the more roundabout and unnecessarily difficult ways of doing so.

Overactive Work Ethic

Question: What sort of process do you go through to make your created Pantheons? (Elohim, etc...) Do you use the steps that were in the Companion or do you have your own special method?

I don't know if I'd call it "special". Special in the way that taking three right turns is a special way of turning left, maybe.

While the pantheon-building steps in Scion: Companion are a good starting place when you're just beginning to figure out pantheons, we really don't use them; they're sort of more a quick-and-dirty primer than a thorough plan for building a whole set of gods. It's possible that I'm also a little biased because I thoroughly did not enjoy the example take on the Slavic gods, but in general it gives you a decent idea what to do but really doesn't feel like a whole plan or guide to me.

Our process for pantheon-building looks something like this:

1) Decide on next pantheon to build. Argue for days about who's more mythically relevant, should have been in the original game lineup, and has the coolest stories. Pledge to finish pantheon in record time so all the other ones not chosen this round can have their turn soon.
2) Go to personal library, public library, and minimum two university libraries for books on pantheon's culture and mythology. Spend a month or two reading and absorbing them while taking copious notes on cool things that could be included in a supplement and suspect things that need corroboration from other scholars.
3) Email writers, professors and scholars on the subject to ask about details and sources. Dither over own presumption.
4) Create a roster of playable deities for the pantheon. Email it back and forth to each other for a week or two to argue about certain points, associated powers and assorted other nitpickery.
5) Begin work on PSP. If did not find an obvious culturally unique idea to base it on during reading, go back to books and read again until one turns up. Make two lists of powers that could be in the purview: one of thematic ideas ("gain power from sacrificing yourself!" "force others to conform to your values!") and one of mechanical implementation ("gain Legend dots!" "give others Virtues!").
6) Rewrite PSP eight kajillion times. Probably end up changing order of boons ten times until it feels right. Argue unceasingly about whether or not powers are too similar to other pantheons' boons or too comparatively boring. Spend endless nights making sure they balance with every other power in the game.
7) Write Underworld section, including landscape, mechanics for travel and occupants. Refer to notes from reading (and books if necessary - thank god for long renewal times at university libraries).
8) Write Overworld section, including landscape, current events and occupants. More of the same. Keep track of various gods and their abodes for use in the Antagonists and Other Beings sections.
9) Start work on Titanrealm by finding an appropriate Greater Titan concept that isn't already taken, hopefully one that is easily apparent as the big bad guy of the pantheon in their myths. Return to libraries to research other cultures to determine what figures might be Avatars of it from various pantheons. After at least two hours of heated debate, write a basic idea of the realm's landscape, behavior and inhabitants, including at least five Titan Avatars and at least one Titanspawn antagonist for visitors.
10) Stare hopelessly at mountain of work remaining. Go out to get Chinese food.
11) Make list of all interesting gods, creatures and characters not on the playable roster for this pantheon. Split them up into antagonist and potentially friendly categories. Write Antagonists section for the one, Other Beings section for the other, including all stats. Include as many plot hooks as possible to avoid having to do a separate plot hook section.
12) Briefly celebrate accomplishment before realizing that supplement is still not done.
13) Grudgingly spend a day trying to come up with Relics while hating entire process because statting Relics is boring.
14) Spend a few days vaguely discussing sample characters without committing to anything. Finally manage to jointly brainstorm character concepts for them. Build both (one Hero and one Demigod) and write their descriptions.
15) Cautiously celebrate accomplishment again, but not before thorough editing to find typos, unfinished sections and mistakes, and cross-referencing all sections for continuity, terminology and not contradicting ourselves.
16) Take a week off to recuperate. Email Stephen and ask unashamedely for free art.
17) Four-day marathon of PDF layout and tweaking. Finally produce a coherent PDF. Email to friends and upload to website.
18) Profit!

So you can see it's got a lot of features similar to the Companion section, but it mostly more complicated and spiced with our tendency to do too many things all at once. Nevertheless, we usually end up with something we can feel pretty proud of and our players can be excited about in the end, which are the things most important to us.

This is why it takes several months per pantheon, though. It's like training for a marathon around here.

Some Devas Just Want to Watch the World Burn

Question: I was reading your description of the Devas and it said that half of them wish to fight the Titans and the other half believe its part of the natural cycle. So my question is which gods are on which side?

While players reading this prevent me from giving you a really detailed answer, I'll give you a generalization: it's easiest to split them down the lines of old Vedic Devas and new Trimurtic Devas.

The Vedic Devas are the oldest deities of Hindu religion: Indra, Surya, Agni and Yama are from the oldest Hindu stories and were the supreme gods of the religion for many centuries. They often come off as the more "human", or at least more similar to other pantheons' gods, because they aren't as fully a part of the modern Hindu ideals of fully transcendent, untouchable divinity in quite the same way some of the others of their pantheon are. Over the centuries, they've slowly fallen out of favor or faded into the background while the Trimurti and their attendants have gained prominence. If anybody is probably ready for the Kali Yuga and the foretold reset of the world, starting over in a pristine, perfect age with no ascendance of any one god over the other, it's them.

On the other hand, the Trimurti and the gods who are popular in modern Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Lakshmi, Parvati, Sarasvati, Ganesha) are likely to be more invested in the way things are now. While some of them are as old as the Vedic gods - Vishnu and Shiva (as Rudra) also appear in those same ancient texts - others are not, and all of them have been transformed by dedicated sects and modern ideas in Hinduism so that they no longer resemble their original forms too closely. They are the supreme gods in their portion of the world with what is probably the largest worshiper base in the world, so the status quo is more likely to look good to them.

But keep in mind that these are generalizations, not ironclad decisions. Some of the latter gods, like Brahma, may feel that they're disenfranchised in modern worship and decide that now is the necessary time for the world to end. Some of the former, like Surya, may be experiencing new surges of worship and importance that make them less likely to want to throw in the towel.

Since Hindu theology clearly points to the end of the world and the beginning of the new one being a good thing (in the grand cosmic scheme of things, anyway - anything to end the horrible Kali Yuga, right?), any Hindu god is fair game to perhaps consider that it's time for things to happen the way they're supposed to happen. But there's no guarantee that any of them feel that way (certainly all of them probably don't), so an individual game's interpretation of Kali Yuga, Kalki, and what happens after should shape whether or not the Devas are trying to preserve the world as it is or help it along to its rebirth.

The Generalist

Quote: What is the viability of a character build with legend 2, nine boons, and 1 epic attribute (intelligence)?

Depends on what you're doing with him or her, I guess. If you've got plenty of physically-inclined friends in your band to keep his unprepossessing and mortally fragile self in one piece, he might survive until he can pick up some more useful things, but he's probably going to be kind of boring to play. Since he has no physical or social attributes, he can't really do anything - being the brain is nice and all, but being literally useless most of the time is not very exciting for most players. Keep in mind, too, that he's going to be blowing all his Birthright points on just being able to have that many purviews he can use, so he's not going to get any fun functionality there, either.

What would be the origin of such a character - why would he be so talented in magic and so tragically normal (or even sub-par, depending on where you spend your points) at things mortals are normally able to do? Level 1 boons are often handy, especially if you're planning to pick up all the immunity boons, but they're not exactly giving you much to work with. They shouldn't, because level 1 is barely past mortal, but the build you're suggesting seems like it's struggling to do even that.

Of course, you can do whatever you want with a character - maybe being fragile and kind of useless is something you want to play on at low Hero and then flip on its head when he comes into his own later on in Hero and Demigod. But it may be frustrating for both you and your fellow players in the meantime, so don't go into it without knowing that.

I'd like to know why you'd want to work with such an improbable setup in the first place - what's the point of having all those boons at Legend 2? Are you just trying to give yourself all the immunities and passive buffs? I'd warn you that almost any Storyteller who sees you doing that will make sure to throw in something you don't have an immunity to at some point, and you're going to be completely out of luck without anything else to fall back on. More importantly, do you really want to set yourself up as the guy who does nine purviews? It's not sustainable in the long run - you'll inevitably have to stop buying some to focus on others, and you may end up feeling like those Birthright and XP points could have gone toward something you actually want to specialize in later. Not only that, but unless you buy some Epics at some point, you're not going to be very good at most of those purviews, which means you'll have to stop working on even more of them in order to have the stats to back up those you do want.

On the other hand, maybe you just want to experiment with different low-level boons in purviews to decide what you want your style to be, and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't come into it thinking that you'll be an instant master of those things and hailed as a multi-talented adept; more often than not, you probably won't be doing much of anything (though super-brains will, of course, be very helpful to the band, especially if nobody else has any).

Dragon-Slayers Beware

Question: Can you make a write up of Kur?

Not only can I, but I will! Here's one version of Kur, envisioned as a slain Titan Avatar; his power can easily be scaled down for a large Titanspawn version of the creature instead.

Kur
        Should a traveler choose to bypass the great walled city of Irkallu and continue on through the shades of the Underworld's wastelands, stripped of power from his journey through the gates and with no guide or signpost to point him the way, he might eventually stumble upon a colossal cairn of mighty bolders, striated with age and piled on the bank of the river Khubur where it loops around the Underworld to form its final border. This is the grave of Kur, the great dragon, and it is seldom visited by any living thing.
        Kur was originally one of the myriad brood of Tiamat's monsters, a hideous scaled serpent with many eyes and jaws that stretched wide enough to threaten even the most powerful of gods. A lieutenant in her army, he deserted when it became clear that she was being defeated by Marduk and secreted himself in the Underworld, where none of Marduk's heavenly deities could discover him lurking in the dark primordial waters of Khubur. The neverending stream of human souls into Irkallu, however, grew so boisterous and chaotic that his hiding place was threatened, and he determined to visit the gods as an ambassador to demand that someone take charge of the wreckage.
        The Anunna were not particularly pleased to see the dragon's scaly form slithering into Shamu, but as he approached under the flag of truce and reminded them of his distant relation to him, they had no choice but to treat him with reasonable civility as a guest. Exactly what happened during negotiations that caused him to simply abduct Ereshkigal and drag her down into the depths with him is unknown to any but the ancient gods themselves, but they do not speak of the incident and so far no one has dared ever ask Ereshkigal herself whether or not she went willingly. The ensuing battle between Kur and an infuriated Enki bent on rescuing his granddaughter shook the very foundations of Irkallu and was felt even in the World above, and it was only barely, battered by waves and bludgeoned by the very earth itself, that the god finally stood triumphant. The Titan was buried beneath monolithic stones even he could not lift, and there the dragon has lain, half-dead, for countless years since.
        Kur is, at present, helpless. He cannot escape the enormous burden of his cairn (placed by Ninurta himself, in a feat of Ultimate Strength) and has no control over any events in Irkallu or any realms that might border it. While some of the Anunna, when they bring up the uncomfortable subject at all, claim that he is probably glad to finally be unmolested and peaceful, Kur's fury at the gods for attempting to thwart his plans to impose order on the netherworld has not dimmed with the ages, burning like a slow, vengeful coal in the depths of his serpentine heart. Despite his best efforts, however, there is nothing he can do; at most, a faint tremble is occasionally felt in the streets of Ereshkigal's citadel, the only legacy of his most strident attempts to escape.
        Should anyone remove so much as a single boulder from the weighty pile imprisoning him, however (a feat that would require at least 100 successes on a Strength + Athletics roll), Kur is ready to burst free in all his ancient glory, appearing in his original form as a massive serpentine dragon with slimy, scaled skin, small clawed legs and nightmare jaws capable of swallowing entire buildings whole. The moment the cairn is breached, he will regain control of his ancient haunts as well, causing the river Khubur to immediately flood Irkallu in a rushing tide of his displeasure. Whether or not he would attempt to attack the Underworld is anyone's guess, but it seems likely that he would attempt vengeance against at least Enki, and nowhere outside the walls of the Great City would be safe for long.
        Virtues: Ambition 2, Malice 5, Rapacity 3, Zealotry 2
        Supernatural Powers:
        Avatars: The Beast, The Shaper, The Flood
        Boons: Every one- to eight-dot Boon from every Purview except Guardian and Justice, which are forbidden to him. Kur also has all Boons from the Animal (Snake), Earth and Water purviews and possesses all Boons from the Me (Animal) purview.
        Epic Attributes: Epic Physical Attributes at the 10-dot level (with all appropriate Knacks). All other Epic Attributes at the eight-dot level (with all appropriate Knacks).

Note that this writeup is for Kur as an Avatar of Emamu, as he is one of Tiamat's children, but you could easily use him as an Avatar of Terra or the Drowned Road instead if it works better for your chronicle. You could also take a similar road but set him as a disenfranchised god - after all, Tiamat's children were the grandparents of the Anunna, so he could make a great antagonist or target for PCs to try to redeem in that way as well.

We Go Together

Question: Occasionally I find myself wondering how the various gods deal with the mergers and schisms that run through mythology. Ares and Mars are very different, but even similar figures like Jupiter and Zeus merge together. Egypt is just as bad, with figures like Amun-Ra. How do y'all work that, is there still Mars running around, but he's a shadow of his former self because Ares has taken most of his Legend? Or was he absorbed into the Legend of Ares and disappeared totally?

Syncretism is a very real, very messy thing throughout pretty much all mythologies and religions, and addressing which parts of what combinations you consider legitimate is a daunting project for any Scion Storyteller (or player, for that matter). There's no hard-and-fast answer; we consider each one on a case-by-case basis, based on what seems most likely and what will work best for the players' story.

In a lot of cases, it's easiest just to say that two different figures are the same god, just being called different names by different people. Zeus and Jupiter are the same guy, but the Greeks and the Romans have their own different names for him; minor variations in their beliefs on him can be chalked up to him having different Fatebonds and cults in the different areas. If two gods are similar enough to make this work and don't have clearly different stories or origins, that's usually the best choice.

It's harder with direct syncretism of two figures into one (which describes basically all of the Egyptian pantheon... freaking Egyptians). In those cases, it might be the results of a divine political coup, where a greater god intentionally pushes humanity to view a lesser one as part of him, thus preventing the lesser god from ever increasing in Legend and becoming a threat (Seker and Osiris, for example). Humans are quite capable of doing this on their own, too - if they happen to find some gods' characteristics similar and start worshiping them together for their own convenience, that's not going to change the gods any, but it might annoy, befuddle or amuse them. Most minor Egyptian gods stay pretty minor (in the Legend 9 to 10 range) because their cults get absorbed and they don't get a chance for their Legends to grow on their own - as soon as someone says, "Oh, I bet that guy is just an aspect of Horus" or "Oh, that goddess is just an expression of Hathor", it's over.

No god ever "disappears" spontaneously, though - that's not a thing in Scion (certainly you wouldn't want it to happen to PCs!). Even if you happen to be a Legend 9 god who never does anything after your apotheosis, that isn't going to make you suddenly vanish into the aether, even if Vishnu comes along and starts telling everybody that you were him all along. It's much harder for a god to get individual notoriety and thus increase Legend if everyone thinks he's some other god, so the odds of you ever getting more powerful and renowned start to get worse, but theoretically you could still climb back up out of that hole. Just because people have been assuming that Chandra was just a smaller version of Soma for centuries doesn't mean Chandra somehow suddenly stopped existing. He's still around, doing whatever it is minor moon-gods do.

A mechanic to cause any god to disappear after they fell below a certain threshold of being known strikes me as a very bad idea for Scion, actually; not only would it be very messy to keep track of and probably difficult to quantify (how do you decide who's well-known enough to stay and who isn't? It's all very subjective), but it actively removes gods that your PCs could be interacting with and shrinks the divine landscape down considerably, which makes for fewer options when telling stories. I'm seldom in favor of something that takes cool things out of the toybox instead of putting them in. Plus, not having Legend doesn't make you not exist, or else there'd be no such thing as humanity.

So really, it depends on the god, the situation, and what you want to do with him in a given story. If you want Menrva to be Athena, you can claim that that's just the name the Etruscans knew Athena by. If you want her to be her own goddess, you can claim that Athena's popularity eclipsed hers and she's still a minor goddess hanging out in Italy, possibly to be used as a character in a story or a player in an attempted coup. But I'd never rule that she mysteriously "vanished" for no apparent reason; got killed by Athena to remove her from the equation, sure, that could happen, but spontaneous divine de-existence doesn't seem like a good option.

Growing Ageless Together

Question: Is Ahouva Anderson really immortal after her marriage to Woody?

Yes, actually, she very nearly is, though it's not just through the magic of being married to Woody (she's a good sport about it, but I'm not sure even she can try to pretend that being married to Woody is a magical experience). Ahouva was an older woman and widowed from her first marriage when Woody married her; Vivian saw that she was beginning to develop early-stage cancer and probably wouldn't live too many years, and not only cured her but also dropped a hefty dose of Control Aging on her as a sort of wedding gift. Ahouva now ages approximately one day every hundred years, so it will take somewhere in the neighborhood of 547,500 years before anyone's likely to even notice her getting wrinklier. Vivian and Woody neglected to mention this to Ahouva herself, so I imagine she's going to be somewhat surprised when she figures it out (although, of course, these things do tend to happen when you marry a god).

In other senses, Ahouva is not technically immortal; she can be killed by normal dangers as easily as any other human and is not particularly immune to things like cold or hunger, either. But considering that Woody is prone to Vigil Branding everything she ever touches and threatening the living shit out of her community whenever he thinks someone might be looking at her funny, the odds of anything ever getting close enough to hurt her are pretty much nil unless he dies or Ragnarok hits.

Tremble, Ye Mortals

Question: Where do humans find themselves in your games? Are people that are not family or friends of the PCs important? Further, what is your stance on gods influencing humanity's growth? Is it like the stance in the books where the gods seem to be the ones making the great scientific and architectural advancements (minimally pointing humans in the correct direction)? Are humans anything more than fatebinding cattle for the gods? Perhaps a step up from cattle, but not more than small children?

Humanity is in a unique and interesting position in Scion: it's both the most and least important group of people in existence. Humanity as a whole is a force capable of reshaping the planet and weighing down the most hardy of gods with the force of their belief and expectations; they can literally change the divine just by believing that it should change, thanks to the power of Fatebonds. Yet, humans on their own, especially individually or in small groups, are negligible to gods and have no hope of affecting or influencing them unless they are specifically allowed to do so. It's a fascinating conundrum for a Storyteller to play with.

Humans that are not directly related to the PCs in some way usually aren't particularly important, but that's not necessarily because they're human; it's because the story is about the PCs, so of course people they don't know aren't as important as people they do (this goes for gods and immortal beings as well). It's true that PCs can have trouble relating to mortals, particularly once they become higher level Demigods and Gods; it's very difficult to form a close attachment to someone you know you could (in some cases literally) reshape into anything you wanted them to be in the blink of an eye. If you can just make them love you, why bother with all the time wasted on courting? If you can make them look like whatever you want, what's the point in choosing one mortal over another? If they can't summon up even a fraction of your brainpower, what on earth could you have to talk to them about? Gods don't interact with humans well because they are by nature too overwhelming and awe-inspiring for a human to handle.

But that doesn't mean mortals can't be important; in fact, they often are. They certainly aren't "cattle", which isn't a label that's particularly appropriate for Scion anyway (though it would be for a game like Vampire), though the idea of "children" probably applies to many gods' perception of them. It entirely depends on the character how they treat mortals and what matters to them when it comes to such underpowered beings. Some, like Aiona, pay about as much attention to them as they would to gnats; as long as they keep doing what she told them to do, they can be totally ignored, and if they fuck up, well, light a few on fire until they stop. Others, like Sowiljr or Vala, care about individual mortals as the people they are, safeguarding them against the vast powers that might wipe them out like the helpless creatures they are. Still others make distinctions between what kinds of mortals they care about (such as Eztli, who would die to save any mortal of Aztec descent but who really couldn't give even the tiniest of damns about anybody else) or what specific people matter to them (Folkwardr actually married a mortal when he was Legend 8; she and her son matter a great deal for him, even though they're not actually involved in his story most of the time). In a sense, it's a lot like people treat other people in real life, just on a larger scale; those who are likely to be sympathetic are still sympathetic, those who never liked other people anyway are free to ignore them, and those who were very selective about who they love can continue to do so without too much of a shift in perspective. Scions, especially, often have close ties to at least a few mortals each; they were recently mortal themselves, after all, and just because they've learned to throw thunderbolts doesn't mean they don't love their mothers anymore.

As far as your Zeuses and Odins go, they may not normally be able to care too much about humanity, but Avatars are a glorious invention that let them power down and live as almost as weak as the humans themselves. For them, it's sort of like replaying a favorite video game; you start over at level 1, and even though you know how the story ends and that you've beaten it before, it's still a fun challenge to go through the motions with your starting equipment. You might find humans incomprehensibly stupid when you have Ultimate Intelligence, but if you drop down to a Legend 3 Avatar, suddenly they're not so bad, and in turn they will treat you refreshingly like another human, since they aren't overloaded by your Ultimate social attributes, either.

Like most things in Scion, it depends on the god or PC in question. Every one has a different personality, which means that some are genocide-prone sociopaths who really couldn't care less if the entire planet were depopulated, and some are crusaders for equality and mercy who would happily trade their own lives to save those of humans. It all depends on who the mortals are, what's happening, and how that particular divine person happens to feel about them.

Nature vs. Nurture

Question: How do you explain Hera being a PC God? Did she finally get tired of her husband's constant adultery and decide to have her own bastards, or does she just adopt like nearly every other Greek goddess in Scion?

While Scion: Hero sets Hera in the first case, presenting her as a cranky witch of a goddess who is having her own Scions because Zeus can't say boo to her about it now, we've never liked that option. While the idea of getting some revenge on Zeus via turnabout has some small appeal, Hera is a goddess of the sanctity and strength of marriage; it doesn't make sense for her to suddenly turn adulteress any more than it would make sense for Ares to declare himself a pacifist or for Aphrodite to decide she was going to be a vestal virgin. Hera adopts in our games, not because she's worried about Zeus getting mad, but because to do otherwise is to go against the very grain of who she is as a goddess and what she represents.

The Greek goddesses are actually split down the middle for us in terms of who adopts and who doesn't; Hera, along with confirmed eternal virgins Artemis and Athena, all adopt their children to avoid breaking their sacred vows, while it's more likely that Hecate and Aphrodite probably have their own children (and, while it's a lot more dangerous for her, Persephone's had at least one during the months she's away from Hades). That is definitely a higher percentage of adopting goddesses than you see in most pantheons, which is most likely a function of the very high value that Greeks placed on chastity as a measure of a woman's virtuousness and moral strength.

It's not all of them, though. And if you can come up with a reason that a Scion might be the actual blood child of a renowned virgin goddess that you think is sound and your Storyteller will run with, that could happen as well. They may not be going out to intentionally have babies, but rape or meddling from tricksters with Illusion or high social Epic Attributes are both easy ways to trick some poor goddess into having a baby the old-fashioned way (if you're willing to deal with some of the fallout hitting your Scion for much of his life, of course!). We actually have an example of such a character in Shadan, who lives in fear of the probable backlash of Sraosha discovering that his sister is not as virginal as he's always striven to keep her.

Round Round Around

Question: Would it be interesting if the Midgard Serpent was fatebound from being a destructive monster into the wise, mystical, and powerfully magical oroboros, the serepent of time and wisdom that is more prevalent in popular culture and modern mysticism? Oroboros did start out as the Midgard serpent eating it's own tail, representing time without end.

Actually, the ouroboros is probably much older than Jormungandr - or, at least, we have evidence of it in other cultures far predating when we have evidence of Thor's snakey nemesis. The Norse are one of the youngest pantheons in Scion; our sources on them are mostly from the eleventh century onward, while other cultures that use the snake-and-tail symbol, like the Greeks and Egyptians, were talking about their gods three or four thousand years earlier than that. Which doesn't mean that the Norse aren't cool, of course, nor that you can't consider Jormungandr an expression of the widely-used ouroboros symbol, but he's definitely not its origin.

I'd have a great deal of trouble believing that Fate would bind Jormungandr away from his role in Ragnarok, because his role in Ragnarok is a direct order from Fate in the first place. Not only would it be nearly impossible for him to get Fatebonds on his own, considering that he's locked out of the World and will have no opportunity to get direct mortal notice until he comes rampaging in at the end of days anyway, but Fate, I think, is unlikely to work against itself for no good reason. For better or for worse, Fate's decided that Jormungandr is going to fuck up some unlucky gods' shit at Ragnarok. It's not fallible like gods are, so I doubt it's going to shoot its own plan in the foot.

However, that doesn't mean you can't find ways around things! Rather than approaching from a point of view of Fate removing Jormungandr from the equation, I'd say that characters are the best place to do that. If your PCs can come up with some crazy harebrained heroic plot to turn Jormungandr to the light and try to align him with reason instead of animal ferocity, let them go for it! And if it seems reasonable, even let them succeed. The important thing to remember about Ragnarok and all the kerfluffle surrounding it is that prophecies are not exact; they're vague, idiosyncratic and frequently talk in metaphors, so when they say something, they may actually mean something quite different. It's all in the interpretation. I don't have any trouble believing that Jormungandr could be removed from the Ragnarok equation - but if he is, then he has to destroy Thor in some other way, or some other creature or symbolic power will need to take his place. The prophecy still has to come to pass, but as long as you can do it in some form that makes sense, it doesn't necessarily have to be as a literal interpretation.

The ouroboros is one of those symbols that, according to well-respected psychologists and mythographers like Jung or Campbell, is universal across most human cultures and times. You might also be able to experiment with some interesting stories when it comes to what monkeying with one of those many expressions does to the others; they might all affect one another, much as Touchstones could be said to do for locations.

The Sixth Ice Age

Question: Did Woody really allow Ymir to rise again?

Yes, he certainly did (as you will see in a story that hopefully makes its way out of half-finished status pretty soon). Don't be too hard on the poor guy; he was in something of a catch-22 situation, thanks to things outside his control, and he chose to give Ymir some power to make sure he could help other people who were important to him. As Folkwardr, he spends a lot of time trying to safeguard against the Titan as well.

It did get an awful lot colder in the World, though. Vala was not amused.

Race Relations

Question: What are the relationships like among your own pantheons, the Annuna, the Elohim and the Bogovi?

For the Bogovi, things aren't very complicated; neither culture is really in their backyard, so they're probably somewhat unconcerned about either of them, at least historically. They're likely to take issue with some of the Elohim shenanigans when they upset the balance of nature, particularly the Baal/Mot/Yam rivalry and how it tends to damage parts of the World when the three of them get into it; those enough in the know to realize that the Elohim have a habit of transplanting entire populations of mortals into their own private sanctums are probably appalled by the situation. Nevertheless, the Bogovi need allies against Stvanarje, and the Elohim, unfortunately, are some of the best candidates as they are not currently engaged in a full-scale war themselves, so they may have to grit their teeth and maybe try to educate their fellow gods about the wider world they inhabit. As for the Anunna, the Bogovi can respect their hands-off approach when it comes to humanity, but suspect that they are too self-involved to be much help to others when push comes to shove.

The Anunna probably view both other pantheons as children, much as they do with anyone who wasn't worshiped at least five thousand years ago. The Elohim, in particular, are probably considered especially fractious and rambunctious, and their historic tendency to occasionally vie with the Anunna for mortal worshipers probably leads some of the Mesopotamian gods (the more tolerant ones, like Enki or Sin) to view them as amusing young things, while others (the crankier ones, like Enlil or Ishtar) may view them as upstarts who need to be put in their place. The Elohim are also fairly old, as godly ages are reckoned, so there may be just a little bit of rivalry going on, though of course the Anunna would never admit to such a thing. As for the Bogovi, the Anunna probably find their odd little laws quaint but in general have no firm opinion on them as long as they behave themselves.

The Elohim are temperamental and their outlook can shift pretty quickly, but they probably have a guarded respect for the Anunna, with whom they've coexisted for pretty much their entire run and with whom relations have usually been pretty civil, or at least seldom outright violent. The Mesopotamian gods' condescending attitude is likely to set off Canaanite tempers, so they probably don't work closely unless the Anunna call on them for aid (in which case I'm sure their gloating that the Anunna needed their strength is probably insufferable). The Slavs are a strange bunch; the Elohim don't really understand why they'd want to dilute themselves by pretending to be part of other cultures or why they're so slavishly devoted to harmonious interaction, and tend to interpret both behaviors as signs of military and leadership weakness. They might be quite surprised to discover that the Bogovi are a power in their own right.

Quite a handful, those old, I-was-smiting-dragons-when-you-were-a-twinkle-in-your-Titan-parent's-eye gods.

Sports!

In the TV show "The Almighty Johnsons", a show about the Norse Gods being reborn in New Zealand, they make Uller the god of games as well as winter and the hunt. I couldn't find anything making him god of games though. Do you know anything that connects Uller with games?

Strictly and classically speaking, no; Uller does not really have anything to do with games. He's one of the older of the Norse gods, which means he has even less to back him up than some of the more well-known ones, but there's nothing about game-playing in there (nor, indeed, about hunting, actually - Uller is attested as being a wicked awesome shot with the bow, but most information on him points to this being used in warfare, not hunting). He's known to be extremely swift, to be the greatest skiier in Asgard, to be a good warrior and to have been sworn by for oaths occasionally (and, depending on the translation, he may have some association with magic as well).

However, I suspect that The Almighty Johnsons is pulling from a much more recent source, what I'd call Uller's modern mythos. In the past several decades, Uller's gained surprising popularity, particularly in northern countries, as the patron god of skiiers; while most don't take him particularly seriously and he's more of a mascot than a true patron, he's nevertheless seen a surge in people who know his name and at least a little bit about him as a result. Some towns in snowy climes hold festivals in his name to encourage the snow to fall, and skiing competitions are occasionally held with him as the figurehead as well. It seems likely to me that The Almighty Johnsons is referring to Uller as a god of games in the sense that these kinds of festivals and competitions are something like mini-Olympics for winter sports; since Uller's the patron of skiing and various related things in some modern areas, they're probably extrapolating from that to make him a god of all winter games and competitive sports.

Uller's recent popularity is pretty cool, even if it's more emblematic than worshipful. Certainly gives you room to mess around with his modern role in Scion games!

When St. Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland, did Cernunnos go with them?

Question: What is the relationship between the Nem and Tuatha? Do they see each other as kin? As tribes who follow similar laws? Or just "its weird Lugh's getting worshiped over in France"?

Ah, a question for every Storyteller: what to do with those cultures who occasionally overlap onto one another. While the Celts were a wideflung ethnic group with several distinct civilizations and languages, we often tend to think of them as one big shamrock-colored soup, which can make differentiating them difficult.

In the specific case of the Nemetondevos and the Tuatha de Danann, I would assume that the Tuatha are occasional visitors to the continental Celts; they have a history of wandering around to neighboring tribes and sharing their stories, and indeed Scotland and Wales are full of them as well. Particularly famous Tuatha like Lugh and Ogma did see a lot of worship on the continent as Lugus and Ogmios, which suggests that the two pantheons don't mind tolerating one another, at least, and might be willing to cooperate. They don't share too many religious practices - Enech is an Irish-only concept, while the Gauls' focus on sacrifice is generally eschewed by the Tuatha - so I doubt they consider themselves bosom buddies, but as occasional allies or long-lost cousins, I don't think they'd have much difficulty with one another. Few of the Nemetondevos ever made it to being worshiped on the islands, so only Cernunnos (an older god whose worship probably resembled Crom Cruach's more than the other Tuatha's) and Gobnhios are probably all that well-versed in Irish custom.

Incidentally, Gobnhios is a great place to explore the relationship between the two pantheons; he's a member of the Tuatha de Danann as Goibniu, the smith-god who forged their weapons against the Fomorians, maintains the cauldron of eternal life and killed Brigid's son Ruadan when he caught him attempting to spy and steal for the Fomorian side. He's actually far less known in Gaul, which might lead enterprising Storytellers and players to wonder what he's doing on the continent instead of at home in Ireland; perhaps he defected to escape Brigid and her overpowering grief (and possible vengeance), or for some other, more secret reason.

There's always going to be some overlap between nearby cultures; Babylonian gods were worshiped in Canaan, Canaanite gods were worshiped in Egypt, Egyptian gods were worshiped in southern Greece, and so on and so forth. We tend to view it less as a combination of those pantheons, who are usually very distinctly different in character, and more as a testament to the power of Legend and the tendency of humanity to always provide worship to deities who impress them (after all, you can't expect Joe Schominus of Gaul to know whether or not a god is a visitor or someone upon whose favor his livelihood depends).

Too Sexy for Mexico

Question: Why does Tlazolteotl have so many enemies?

Tlazolteotl's divine function is the temptation and punishment of anyone who commits (or thinks about committing) sexual sins. Those who repent of their sexual transgressions sometimes get her blessing and absolvement; those who don't, or who succumb to her temptations without displaying appropriate spiritual fortitude, get the full force of her wrath, usually in the form of horrible sexually-transmitted diseases and other unfortunate occurrences.

This is all fine when you're just hanging out in the Aztec culture; Tlazolteotl reflects their sexual taboos and morals, after all, so she's just doing her job. But when you start rubbing up against other cultures, you abruptly encounter the issue of the Eater of Filth being directly opposed to a lot of people. Gods across all cultures are a sexually promiscuous lot (some pantheons more than others), and Tlazolteotl has no patience for things like homosexuality, sex outside of wedlock or bestiality shenanigans. Like most justice gods, she probably gets pissy as soon as someone who is guilty of that particular kind of behavior hits her radar, even if it's something that wouldn't be frowned upon in their native culture. Dudes like Zeus or the Dagda are Target One for somebody like Tlazolteotl; they are, as far as she's concerned from her Aztec-morals point of view, serial sex offenders.

We imagine that the Aztlanti probably do not send her anywhere that diplomacy has to happen, because nobody wants to deal with a negotiation-destroying bout of Code of Heaven. Tlazolteotl's function and outlook are not very compatible with more sexually liberated cultures, so anyone who's famous for their sexual indiscretions (or even just sexual freedom) should probably avoid her lest they discover themselves on her list of punishable miscreants.

Touching Divinity

Question: Have you considered adding a Touchstones section to the site? They seem such an underutilized and yet amazing part of the game. Who doesn't want to pay a visit to the Platonic Ideal of an Amusement Park?

Yes, we have! We're big fans of Touchstones over here as well, particularly since most of our psychopomp Scions are now afraid of them thanks to an early, disastrous encounter with the Colossus. They're very cool parts of the landscape, both for travelers to use as through-points and others adventuring in them, and Scion really doesn't seem to do them enough justice.

They'd be a large project, however, and as you can see we have no shortage of large projects around here! Touchstones are a little bit on our back burner at the moment and would probably fall under the category of our settings projects. We hope to get there someday soon, and in the meantime are keeping a lot of notes on our future plans for them (well, I'm keeping a lot of notes, John is keeping all the information in his mental rolodex because paper is for the weak).

Ships Passing in the Night

Question: Are your current active PCs still two separate bands, or have they met?

They're definitely still separate bands, and they've never met all together at once, but single members of both have occasionally crossed the others' paths. Terminus and Vala share cult space in Delphi and have met a few times under friendly circumstances, and he also turns up occasionally to help Yoloxochitl when she needs transportation. Sowiljr and Vala have met briefly on a few occasions in Asgard, and though you probably couldn't call them friends, they've been known to cooperate cautiously.

There've been a lot more near misses than real meetings. Yoloxochitl keeps trying to meet Eztli, but they never seem to be in the same place at the same time, and the two bands have run across things the other one did more times than I can probably think of off the top of my head (often with extreme displeasure; Jioni is vastly unamused by some of Zwazo's continental arts and crafts projects, and Vala will probably curse Aiona's face off if she ever sees her). Folkwardr was on a crusade to kill Eztli for a while, but (probably fortunately for everyone involved) never caught up to her.

We find that the players have more fun poking at one anothers' doings and belongings from afar than they do hanging out in person (in person, they tend not to like one another too much). Also, ten characters is a bit too overwhelming for a single game; we've done it, but it's hard to make sure everyone's getting the individual attention they need, so we prefer to keep the number down.

Moving On Up

Question: How do you handle the concept of mortals becoming gods? For example, in the legends on Dionysus' page, both his mortal mother Semele and wife Ariadne become goddesses. How do you justify or explain that within the rules of the Scion universe?

For Dionysus, actually, we don't have to; both Semele and Ariadne have divine blood (as do most important people in Greek myth) that makes them normal candidates for Scionhood and eventually godhood by Scion's rules. Ariadne is the granddaughter of Helios, making her easily tappable as a Scion either by him or anyone he allowed to adopt her, and Semele's mother Harmonia was the daughter of Aphrodite and Ares, making her even closer to godhood from the start. They are both considered mortal in their initial myths, but since unvisited Scions (and even low-Legend Hero-level Scions) are basically mortals, that's to be expected. It could be an interesting place for a Storyteller to explore with his characters whose Scions exactly they were; did their grandparents make them Scions, or did Dionysus adopt the both of them, and what kind of politics arose as a result?

There are actually very few examples of real mortals becoming gods in world myth; the only legitimate one coming to mind for me at the moment is Pizamar, a human maiden whom the Slavic god Svarozhich became so infatuated with that he went on an intentional campaign to turn her into a goddess so he could be with her without breaking his own laws. In those kinds of cases, I'd follow what the myths themselves relate; for Pizamar, there's a complicated process that the myth lays out in which she has to be fed the honey of immortality from the Underworld and then have her handprint erased from Morena's cave so that death will never be able to find her. I'd allow enterprising Slavs to try to take the same route to make a mortal divine if they wanted to, though between Svarozhich, Smert, Morena and a very angry subterranean bat, it'd be a very tall order to achieve.

There are a few other mortals-turned-divine floating around out there - Yama was supposedly the first mortal to die, after which the Devas made him one of them so he could rule the dead. But then again, he's sometimes referred to as already having been a god, and since there's no explanation for how he was made into a Deva, I'd probably assume that he was a nascent Scion who wasn't tapped until after his death (possibly as part of somebody's plan to make sure that Naraka had someone in charge of it). I'd assume similar things about any other mortals without specific lineages that become gods; they were probably actually Scions who either hadn't been tapped yet or were just in their low-level Hero phase when the stories about them were written.

Scientific Truth vs. Mythic Truth

Question: Are gods presumed to be so Fatebound they cannot believe where their myths have come into conflict with history?

Generally speaking, their myths usually don't come into conflict with history; if they did one thing in myth, and human history says something else happened, either A) both things happened, or B) the humans are wrong (which is only natural; it's not as if they could necessarily understand what was going on on a grand cosmic scale all the time). Because Scion incorporates all myths from all cultures and involves the normal human world as well, Storytellers have to be able to reconcile all these things on the fly; in the same way that you have to allow Odin's creation of the world and Brahma's creation of the world and Ahura Mazda's creation of the world to all be true, you also have to allow them to be true in spite of things like mortal carbon-dating and scientific theory.

It's the nature of the beast, for a fantasy game that presumes that gods and their powers are real. A lot of humanity's myths involve explaining how or why the world works the way it does - why the weaver-bird is brown, why the water is separate from the earth and the earth separate from the sky, why it's necessary to have laws to take care of people, or why corn grows to feed the masses. In the modern age, science explains those phenomena instead, but a Storyteller can't rely on scientific fact and theory in a Scion game, because by its very nature it'd exclude the gods themselves. When myth says that the Kami created the Japanese islands by dripping them from heaven with a spear, well, that probably really happened in Scion; it's mythic truth, no matter what scientists might think about it in terms of geological and volcanic motion. When myth says that the Norse won their invasion against the Slavs because the Norse gods marched with them and the Slavic gods declined, that's the mythic truth even if there's no mortal record of it and other factors like terrain and resources are the human explanation for it.

Now, things are different for Scions who become gods during the course of your game (aren't they always?). Scions who become gods have the mixed blessing and curse of seeing how humanity interprets their actions and converts them to myth in real-time. Some savvy ones may try to meddle with that, suggesting what the story should be to listening mortals; others probably just let the chips fall where they may. This does mean that occasionally a myth will not be entirely accurate to what happened - for example, while mortals believe that Sowiljr is a death-rebirth god who dies every year and is revived by his wife's sacrifices, all that actually happened was that he was badly wounded in a battle and spent several days unconscious, which they misinterpreted as him having died. He's had little luck explaining to them that he's never died, mostly because they're so ecstatically happy whenever his wife "resurrects" him, so it's become part of his Legend even though it didn't happen quite that way.

Gods are gods and their exploits are their exploits; what myth and legend says they did is what they did. They can't be treated the same as Scions because they're a different creature, in most cases without human origin and with stories that date back far too long and are far too cosmic and grandiose for a Storyteller to bother with trying to come up with possible alternate theories for all of them. But if you want to monkey around with human myth-making and expectations, Scions becoming gods is the perfect place to do that, not to mention usually being a lot of fun for players who realize that the ability to write their own Legends is at their fingertips.

Fighting Fate

Question: Who is Comprenion? The Titan of... Order? The description on Scent the Titanic reminds me of the Weaver from Werewolf.

It probably should, because Comprenion (the reconstructed Gaulish word for destiny) is the Titanrealm of Fate. Created by the Fates, Norns and Matrones to strike back against those gods who dare to flout their fateful decrees, it's a place of rampant magic, fluid fate and terrible finality. Non-Fate powers fail to work reliably, Fatebonds pop up spontaneously all over the world, and nobody comes out quite the same as they went in.

We created it more to respond to certain issues in our specific game than anything else, but for those using the Nemetondevos, it can also be a good alternative antagonist for those whose games run more smoothly using the traditional Titan setup instead of trying to figure out what the Matrones are up to as free agents. The three triads of ladies are currently our working Titan Avatars, but any famous magician- or prophet-gods might be candidates for membership as well.

As a generality, PCs are scared stiff of the place and avoid it at all costs, which makes sense as Fate is the ultimate boogeyman of the setting. Vala and Jioni are actually embarking on a field trip into its depths this coming week, so I'm looking forward to all the mistakes, tears and recriminations to come.

Our Titan of Order is Sedeq, a full writeup for which can be found in the Elohim supplement.

Disenfranchised Islanders

Question: Have you thought about doing anything the the Kamuii? It seems like they would bring up some uncomfortable questions for your average Amatsukami.

You can only make people uncomfortable about things they've done if they actually feel bad. I'm not sure Amaterasu or the rest of her court are wasting much guilt on the conquest of the Ainu, since they're very much all about their own divine right to rule and general superiority and awesomeness, but I do think the Ainu gods (and the Ryukyuan ones as well, while we're at it) could make pretty excellent agitators, antagonists or rising political powers to spice up the Japanese mythic landscape. Just like the Gauls have a bone to pick with the Dodekatheon or the Nubian pantheon is probably not a collection of the Pesedjet's biggest fans, you could get a lot of very cool mileage out of their history of conflict, what they're trying to do in the modern age and what sides modern Scions with modern morals might come down on.

I haven't been doing much planning for the Kamui as an individual playable pantheon lately, mostly because they're pretty small and didn't immediately strike me as a group that needed to be added as a priority. That doesn't mean that won't change in the future, though (and I happen to know that some folks on the forums are already tinkering around with a few of them). I might actually lean more toward the idea of a Ragnarok-style expansion on the Amatsukami that incorporated the Ainu and Ryukyuan mythologies and their issues - that'd be a super awesome place to go for involving them in stories even if they didn't end up with enough meat to be playable on their own.

Monster a la Mode

Question: Why is Raymond Dent a typical college frat boy asshole, while Saki is a feral seductress traumatized by Raiden at every turn? In other words, since they are both children of Raiden, why is one relatively normal, while the other is what many consider a monster who tricked an entire band into slaughtering each other?

A fun question! I went to the players to get their word on their characters.

From Ray's player:

"Basically, I figure initially it was just beer goggles. They met at some ridiculous frat party while Raiden was in a human avatar form, and Ray and he were drinking a whole lot and putting everyone under the table. And then this other guy outdrinks Ray and he passes out. When he woke up, the guy told him he was his dad, and said that the last three couldn't keep up and didn't make it, so good job. After that it was pretty much out of sight, out of mind. By the time he saw Raiden in his true form, he'd already seen a lot of weird stuff from being around Colin. I figure by that point he didn't care about anything too much anymore."

From Saki's player:

"Saki probably came into her divinity the most traumatically of any character in the game. She had a happy normal life with a happy normal family, and then she came home and a monster out of her nightmares was literally eating them right in front of her. There's no coming back from that, psychologically. She wasn't a bad person before that point, but the shock of her family's murder combined with the realization that she was the daughter of a monster and therefore probably a monster herself snapped her mind pretty effectively. If Raiden had bothered to ease her into it in any way, she might have been able to deal with it better, but he didn't, so now she is what she is. Which is pretty much what he wants her to be, so I guess that worked out for him pretty well."

From an ST perspective, Raiden gave Ray his Visitation in the United States while part of a semi-diplomatic mission where a few different gods from different pantheons were meeting to work on things; it's likely that Amaterasu and company had him on his best behavior while he was abroad to prevent political incidents. There was nothing preventing him from being his happily monstrous self on his home turf, however, so Saki got him in all his full, gory glory. Every Scion probably has a slightly different conception of their parent than their siblings or others outside the family, but Ray and Saki are a pretty extreme example.

I imagine Ray was probably more mentally stable than Saki to begin with, or at least better at rolling with crazy scary violent weirdness, or else he wouldn't have been able to deal with Colin all that well, either. What I'm really curious about is what the deal was with Ray's mother - I'd love to know how that went down.

Gods Are Pretty Racist

Question: How do you pick what a pantheon might facepalm over and what they accept whole heartedly? I mean, Nihonjinron seems pretty cringe-worthy, but you implied they might follow it. What do you think the dividing line between what might be picked up by the pantheon and them just looking down at the mortals and shaking their heads is?

In most cases, pantheons really aren't united enough to say absolutely. Big overarching concepts kind of come down to two options: either it's a massively important concept that the entire culture is founded on (like sacrifice for the Aztlanti or pursuit of the truth for the Yazata), in which case everybody probably agrees on it, or it's something like nihonjinron, which is a smaller issue that different gods probably have different opinions on. To use that example, I'd assume that the courtly, old-guard kami like Amaterasu and Hachiman probably do subscribe to that theory, as it's one that would appeal to their personalities, but that others, like Raiden, probably don't bother to care about the issue one way or the other.

Keep in mind, also, that divine morals are not the same as human morals in most cases. We may look at something like nihonjinron and think, "Oh, man, that's kind of racist and weird," and be turned off by it, but a god, especially an ancient one attached to an insular culture that doesn't play well with others, may not have any problem with it. The best way to get a feel for a pantheon's moral compass is to look first at their Virtues; the more Virtues a given subject pisses off, the more likely it is that that pantheon is strongly opposed to it, while if it doesn't tickle any of their Virtues, there's a much higher chance that they don't care. A god of the Amatsukami who has Harmony and Valor would probably find someone's fury-filled murder of an enemy's children appalling, while a god of the Elohim who has Courage and Vengeance probably wouldn't bat an eye.

Every god has a different, distinct personality, however, so you can't always rely on the pantheon's Virtues for all of your predictions. Yeah, the Devas don't have Vengeance and are traditionally pretty chill, but dudes like Indra and Shiva are still more likely to fly off the handle and wreck someone for insulting them than people like Brahma or Parvati. And while most of the Pesedjet would probably freak out over a giant oil spill in the Mediterranean thanks to their Harmony, it's probably a safe bet that someone like Set doesn't care nearly as much as someone like Hathor.

In the end, you have to use your own judgment as a Storyteller to decide who's going to react to what and how, using the basic tools of Virtues, personality and what those gods have done in past stories. If you're a player, you can use the same knowledge to try to figure out what the gods you interact with might think or do in certain situations (though keep in mind that if your character has one dot of Intelligence and no Academics, he probably doesn't know the first thing about Loki and what he might or might not get pissed off about!).

The Good Guest

Question: Where did you find all your information on Radegast? I've poked around everywhere, and in pretty much everything I've found, if it doesn't dispute his existence, it labels him as a sun deity, like Svantovit.

Hey, there, good question! Most of the material on Radegast in the Bogovi supplement comes from Ivan Hudec's Tales from Slavic Myths, a pretty awesome book that was just translated from the Slovakian in the early 2000s. It's hard to come by and pricey, but a great read (with some awesome art, to boot). Hudec's the former Minister of Culture of Slovakia, and the book was officially endorsed by the Slovak Academy of Science's anthropological division, so I feel pretty comfortable believing that they might know something about Slavic myth in the area that English books, often based on much older English books because it's hard to get original source material, might not. Much of the book focuses on western Slavic myth (Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech, Germany) instead of the more familiar eastern/Russian myths that most English texts I've read on the subject focus on, so that might also contribute to its different perspective on some deities.

I haven't seen much that I thought was too legit on Radegast as a sun-god (there was a period where Slavic scholars decided pretty much everyone was a sun-god, it seems), though I have frequently seen the theory that Saxo misinterpreted a shrine to Svantovit and invented Radegast based on the place's name. Then again, there are English-speaking scholars who dislike that theory as well, noting that it's much more likely that the place was named for the god than the other way around, so it's a murky area.

If you're not comfortable using Radegast as a god, you could always boot him from the roster in your games and instead stick with the Radegast Terra Incognita provided in Scion: God (though I would definitely not recommend anything else about that adventure, as the myth of Svarog fighting a dragon named Zmey - which is just the Slavic word for dragon, not a character I've been able to find in any source - is, as far as I can tell, an internet fabrication from the modern Slavic pagan community).

Vendidad and Veda

Question: You've mentioned that in your games, the Yazata and Deva aren't very friendly. How do you deal with Vayu, considering the Deva Vayu is very similar to the Yazata Vayu-Vata, and the Deva Vayu is the father of one of the Pandava? Does the Deva Vayu not exist in your games, is he a facet of the Yazata Vayu-Vata? Are they two separate entities, or a dual natured entity, straddling the line between the pantheons?

Vayu's one of my favorite dudes in all of Scion, I think, mostly because of the questions you're asking. He's one of the few gods who is very obviously a Deva and also very obviously a Yazata. They're not just guys with similar names; they are literally the same person, with the same described attributes and stories. It's pretty awesome, because all by himself Vayu is illustrating the original point at which those religions were the same, as well as illustrating the way they grew apart.

In our games, Vayu is technically a Yazata, but he keeps his foot in the door for the Devas. The Devas consider him a Deva, while the Yazata consider him a Yazata, and he doesn't tell either of them that they're wrong (which, in all technicality, they aren't). Without giving too much away for the players reading this, the long enmity between the two pantheons does not extend to him; he's playing both sides, not necessarily maliciously, but just because it's more helpful to him not to be anyone's enemy. He's not the only one, either; Haoma, also a member of the Yazata, does much the same by remaining a nominal Deva as Soma, his ancient Vedic equivalent. There are a few other non-playable gods who come to mind (Aryaman and Airyaman, for example) who continue to maintain membership in both pantheons, dating from before the millennia-ago schism that divided them.

The Devas and Yazata and their deep-rooted dislike of one another is one of the coolest political situations to play with in Scion, in my opinion; figuring out what caused it and whether or not the rift can be healed makes an awesome goal for any Scion of either pantheon pantheons, as does conquering or humiliating the enemy pantheon once and for all or (like Vayu and Haoma) trying to stay neutral between both of them, whichever a character is more likely to lean toward. To illustrate this, we actually did an experiment in the Eastern Promise game, where we offered any Scions of Haoma or Vayu the option of choosing to take Asha or Samsara as their PSP at character creation (they can't switch later or have both, but they get the initial choice). While so far there were no takers, I don't see a problem with doing the same in other games if you like the idea - it certainly might lead to some interesting philosophical clashes even if the Scion never tries to go over to the other side, so to speak.

I'd note that Haoma and Vayu do not themselves have both Asha and Samsara; they both probably only have Asha, as they have fully committed to being members of the Yazata. But their status as straddlers of the line and participants in Deva culture means that the ichor of both pantheons is present in tiny amounts in their Scions, which allows them to make that choice for themselves.

Revisionists Run Amok

Question: Why does Enki lack Magic and Epic Intelligence? Epic Int in particular is kind of his thing, being a giver of civilization and a god of wisdom. Magic as well, given that he's seen as a sorceror and keeper of mystical knowledge. (Also, Nergal lacks Animal (Lion) on his page, but has it on the pdf. Which is correct?)

While I have occasionally seen references to Enki as a god of wisdom scattered around the internet, I actually couldn't find much to support it in books on the subject or stories about Enki. Enki's very, very quick on his feet - he's clever, as evidenced by the story of him circumventing Enlil's commands and managing to avoid getting punished for it, but wise doesn't really seem to be him. He is called wise now and then, of course, but all Meopotamian gods are called wise occasionally, including those that kind of obviously aren't, like Marduk. It's not really a literal descriptor but rather a worshipful acknowledgment that they're all wiser than humans. Similarly, pretty much all the Anunna are praised as givers of civilization - Enlil, Sin, Ishtar and Shamash also get props for that, and it's really more of an acknowledgment of their power and effect on mortals than a literal descriptor. (Also, giving civilization is one of the things their PSP does, so technically they can all do that, anyway.)

I haven't seen anything referring to Enki as a god of magic or the occult. Where'd you find that? (Not being snippy, I genuinely want to know if we're missing something!)

As for Nergal, you're right; he has Animal (Lion) in the original supplement and currently doesn't on the site. Basically, the supplements are written with the goal of anyone being able to use them in their game, even if they're using all the other basic rules and settings from the Scion line, so they don't quite follow all our rules; they stick to the game's original Titan lineup, avoid reusing gods and beings that are in other books when they can help it, and are a little bit more liberal with associateds than we tend to be in our games. So when we moved the Anunna to the site, we tinkered with them like we tinker with all of White Wolf's supplements, and there were small changes here and there (Ereshkigal lost Perception, Marduk gained Fire, etc).

I believe in Nergal's specific case, he already had a lot of associateds and John felt that as he doesn't specifically do anything lion-related in any story, we could give that one a pass. Considering that he has a lion head and that lion chariot thing, I'd be perfectly willing to let him have it, though. As always, I suggest using whichever version of the god works best for your game.

The Best Around

Question: Is Ganesha really "perfect?"

If your definition of perfect includes a dude who overeats until he falls down and literally explodes, then puts the food back in his belly, and then stabs anyone who dares laugh at the spectacle... then, sure.

Hinduism is very fond of calling its deities "perfect", even when they are demonstrably being crazy, violent, illegal or immoral. Shiva is often called perfect, too, and he's a guy who never bathes and hangs out naked and covered in dead people in cemetaries when he's not at home murdering his sons. Vishnu's also called perfect, even though he punched his wife in the face that one time and ended up begging in the streets as a result. In most cases, including Ganesha's, what's meant is not that they're perfect in the sense of having no flaws and never making poor decisions, but perfect in embodying their particular area of divinity.

Ganesha may be a gluttonous crankypants, but he's perfect in wisdom; there's no knowledge beyond his reach or thought too difficult for him to unravel. He is a master of all sacred mysteries and the keeper of all godly wisdom. No matter what the confrontation or puzzle, he always knows, not just an answer that will work, but the perfect answer. He knows the answer by divine reckoning, not just what humanity might come up with as a solution.

So yes, Ganesha is perfect. Not physically perfect - he has a surrogate head, complete with busted tusk from the aforementioned stabbing incident. Not temperamentally perfect - he's eaten other gods out of house and home and, well, stabbed people. But intellectually perfect, as the perfect embodiment of wisdom? Absolutely.

I find that it helps, when any mythology starts calling their gods perfect (the Hindu aren't the only ones by any means - just look at the list of superlatives Greek poets heap on Zeus), to consider that what they're really saying is that the gods have Ultimates and Avatars. In those areas, they are the pinnacle of perfection, regardless of what other little wrinkles or idiosyncrasies they all probably have.

Second-Stringers

Question: What are your thoughts on sub-pantheons being differentiated from the larger pantheons? Like the Vanir having some substantive difference from the Aesir, or bringing the Dei and Aisar into some kind of light as 'cousins' or maybe more like divine satrapies of the Dodekatheon?

First of all, +10 points for use of the word "satrapies". Secondly, I have to answer this question as me, because John's at home right now and I actually don't know if he shares my opinion. I'm sure he'll weigh in below if necessary.

If I can digress for a moment, I actually wish that people would stop using the Vanir and the Aesir as an example for sub-pantheons (not that I'm yelling at you, question-asker, you're just not the first to do so lately). The Vanir and Aesir are in a completely unique situation; they're not really two different pantheons. They are one pantheon with two distinct ethnic groups within it. The Vanir are not a separate "pantheon" in the sense of any other group in Scion; they were not worshiped by different people, based in a different geographic area, or in any way from a different culture. They're just as Norse as the Aesir; it just so happens that Norse myth includes two warring factions of rival gods rather than a singly united pantheon. This isn't unique in the world; in fact, it's almost exactly the same as the differentiation between the Greek gods and the Greek Titans. You wouldn't call the one a sub-pantheon of the other. The Vanir aren't a sub-pantheon of the Aesir; they're just a different flavor of Norse god. The only difference is that Scion leaves them playable instead of setting them up as Titans.

But anyway: I'm honestly torn on the idea of sub-pantheons. I'm really not sure that I like them. I completely understand and agree with their intent - to get important gods of pantheons that maybe don't have a full enough roster to be statted on their own into the limelight and available for play - but in practice, I find that I've almost never looked at one and even vaguely entertained the idea of using it. There are a few reasons for this:

A) The lack of differentiation is obnoxious. I understand wanting to play somebody who isn't represented in the major pantheons, but if they're just going to have the exact same cultural stuff as the major pantheons anyway, might as well just declare that you're a son or daughter of the god you like who was adopted by a bigger pantheon's god. Just as much interaction with your real parent if you want it and the Storyteller's on board, but the same mechanical effect - you can even swap out your Virtues at character creation if you feel like it. If a sub-pantheon is sharing the same real estate and PSP as the major pantheon, you might as well call a spade a spade. Which leads me to:

B) I don't like making everybody spades. Invariably, generalizations happen that I'm uncomfortable with, thanks to religious overlap. To use your example, there's no way I'd ever set the Aisar up as a sub-pantheon of the Dodekatheon - they may share some stories from cross-cultural pollination, but they're definitely not close to being the same people. The Etruscan religion was rising at the same time as much of the Greek ones, and no matter what bad restaurants in the United States might try to tell you, Italian and Greek are not the same. They are extremely different in values, morals, cultural roots and worship. Saying the one is just an offshoot of the other isn't just generalizing; it's actively wrong. There are pantheons where you could make that claim legitimately, but in most cases there just isn't enough overlap to make me comfortable with it.

C) It also plays favorites about who's the most "important". I know that Scion kind of does this by nature, because its power scale is based on Legend and there are a lot of tricky questions about how well-known a pantheon has to be before it's fair game for play as a result. But when you designate a group of gods as a "sub-pantheon", you're making a direct call that says "These people are less important/culturally relevant than the main pantheon." It says, not only that they're just an offshoot of the larger pantheon, but that they're somehow less relevant. And while I think that can work on a case by case basis, it's something that each group, game and Storyteller has to decide for themselves. I recall first reading in Scion: God that the Anunna had called upon their sub-pantheons, including the Ugaritic gods, in their fight against Aten, and I remember being almost offended, because not only was it ludicrous to say that the Canaanite gods were somehow the same as the Mesopotamian ones, but it very clearly dismissed them as not important enough to be considered a pantheon in their own right.

Yet, at the same time, I still get the allure of sub-pantheons. I really do. There are deities out there who don't have enough support to be playable on their own who I would love to see running around enriching Scion's landscape. I'm just as opposed to declaring that everybody not in the playable pantheons is less than Legend 12 - clearly, dudes like Anansi or Maui are not the kind of small fry that nobody knows anything about, and claiming they aren't Legend 12 just because they don't currently have a whole playable pantheon beside them doesn't wash. Sub-pantheons solve that dilemma, at least in the short-term. But they don't solve it satisfactorily for me, so I continue to not be a fan of them until I figure out how to make them work for me.

I'm pretty sure my crazy brain just wants to stat everyone as full pantheons anyway. Which is crazy, but there you go - solves all my problems.