Question: We know the Orisha love Prophecy and Mystery (it's even in their PSP), but how do they feel about the Magic purview and the gods or Scions that use it?
To put it mildly, they are not big fans. The Orisha tend to shoot witches on sight and ask questions later, if they bother asking any questions at all instead of being relieved and having some celebratory palm wine.
Actually, their love of Prophecy and Mystery is tied into the same ideas here that probably make them extremely twitchy and unhappy around Magic. Yoruba religious philosophy holds that each person is born with a destiny to be achieved, chosen by them before their birth, but that they do not know its exact details. Each person is responsible for figuring out what to do in order to achieve their destiny in a sort of lifelong ongoing quest, and unlike in European cultures' conceptions of future and fate, the Yoruba are fully aware that this is not a foregone conclusion. It is entirely possibly to fail at one's destiny by not figuring out what you're supposed to do or even just not trying hard enough, and a failure to achieve your destiny means that you lived a literally wasted life, with no significance, importance or goodness to contribute to your people.
Since most normal people don't have a hotline to what Fate wants them to be doing, this is why divination, the practice of seeking oracular enlightenment, is so centrally important to the Orisha and their people. Seeking readings from prophets and oracles allows people to get small glimpses into what they're supposed to be doing and what it might be their destiny to achieve, giving them a significantly better chance of succeeding than if they just flailed around in the dark trying to guess what the best path might be. Orunmila, god of prophecy and enlightenment, has dedicated his entire existence to providing this all-important information to anyone who might need it, in tandem with Eshu, who despite being a seriously crazypants trickster who does a lot of things that make no sense just because he thinks its funn still takes that particular duty seriously most of the time. Even the other gods often stop to ask for divinations during their divine myths, looking for guidance as to what they need to be doing, such as when Obatala seeks a reading from Orunmila before he embarks on the journey that eventually lands him in Shango's dungeons or when Shango discovers his father's true identity through a divination and is able to set out to find him.
So, in the Yoruba religion, you have a bunch of people, including gods, who are striving to reach their all-important destinies, and who love to use Mystery and Prophecy to help guide them toward what they need to do in pursuit of that goal. When you introduce Magic, suddenly everything becomes problematic in a very, very big way.
Magic is the opposite of Prophecy and Mystery; instead of divining the will of Fate, it imposes itself upon Fate to twist it for its own ends, meaning that it directly confuses or perverts the intent of one or more peoples' destinies. Yoruba myth is replete with stories of witches, how terrible and dangerous they are, and how they have to be destroyed immediately for everyone's good; even in the modern day, believers in the Orisha visit priests when they experience a string of bad luck to ensure that they are not being afflicted by some witch's evil curse. If a being has the power to literally change your destiny, or at the very least confuse it so badly that you don't know which way is up, you're almost guaranteed not to be able to achieve it the way you were meant to.
So using Magic is basically the most anti-Orisha thing you can do, and they are not at all okay with it. Which is not to say that they don't have a few people among their ranks with that power; Oshun, in particular, is associated with the manipulation of destiny because she is the goddess of hairdressing, and destiny is according to Yoruba thought located in the ori or "head", meaning that to change your head is literally to change your fate, and similarly Eshu, who occasionally intentionally twists Orunmila's messages about fate for his own reasons (usually petty revenge), is known to be a weaver and worker. But as a generality, even though those gods are tentatively accepted because they never (or, in Eshu's case, seldom) use it for evil, it's an entire purview whose purpose is expressly to fuck the entire universe up. It ruins everything. It's the worst.
So, the Orisha are likely to look askance at anyone who demonstrates Magic under the best of circumstances, and to react with outright hostility and fear under the worst. Meddling in another person's destiny is perhaps the most serious sin you could commit to upset them, so while they aren't as likely to care if you just fuck around with your own fortune - after all, it's your problem if you screw up and can't figure out your destiny anymore - they will have very little tolerance for in any way manipulating someone else's. Even if you're behaving yourself, you're not likely to gain their trust; to them, you're walking around all the time wearing a giant ticking bomb strapped to yourself, and your constant assurance that it's okay, you're not going to use it isn't going to set very many of them at ease.
In our games, the Orisha have put up with a few Magic users in their vicinity out of necessity (particularly at the Kingsmoot, where they can't exactly start taking potshots at everyone else's viziers), but they aren't happy about it. Obatala in particular has been very vocal about wanting any "evil wizards" that might be nearby to be hunted down and destroyed, including Folkwardr, and only the fact that most of the major Magic gods are elsewhere trying to work on the Fate problem together has prevented probable violence from breaking out. Luckily, none of our Orisha Scions have ever been into Magic all that much except for poor Theo, and since he got eaten by Titans after only a fairly short career as a Scion, they're inclined to view him as having gotten his just deserts.
To be clear, it's not that you can't be a Scion of the Orisha and have Magic; you totally can, and several of them even pass it down as favored. But you'll be under constant surveillance and mistrusted by many, possibly all of the family members you deal with, so choose your powers - and how you use them! - wisely.
I'm not sure if you can/will answer these questions for storyline reasons, but I figured I'd ask.
ReplyDeleteJudging by your tweets, Goze seems to be very positively viewed by the Orisha and Aurora seems to be very negatively viewed by them. How/why did these wildly different opinions of them come to be? And how much of them were actually formed based on their actions, and how much was formed based on rumor, speculation, and misinformation?
Additionally, how are orisha scions that associate with Magic users viewed? I think I remember something about Jionni being referred to as "friend of the witch."
Im sure its hard to find them.....but which tweets do you mean. I dont disagree with your hypothesis. But Im trying to remember when it would have come up.
DeleteIf I remember, jioni is friend of the witch because of aurora. Who you are right....orisha might not like....but she also did mystery and prophecy pretty hard and was careful about magic....so maybe not.
Much like any scion who has powers their pantheon fears(norse fire/wolf dudes, aztec star ladies, etc) they are watched more closely, perhaps they are insulted or bullied a bit, but otherwise left alone.
Goze, as far as I can remember, never interacted with the Orisha very much, so they probably didn't have an opinion on him. He ran into a few of the New World loa-style gods and hung out with Marcus James, but never met any of the African or South American Orisha except for Shango (not exactly their most observant representative), who would have been much more likely to be pissed off about his meddling.
DeleteAurora hung around them a little more, but John's right, she was a whole lot more obvious about Prophecy and Mystery than her Magic. Those of the Orisha who paid any attention to her probably thought of her as Vivian's pocket diviner more than anything else.
Found the tweets in question.
DeleteEztli: "In Obatala's worldview, Goze is the best wizard to ever live, and Aurora the most evil one. #WizardHierarchy"
"I heard she ate people at Ragnarok!"
"I heard she ripped Woody's arm off and threw it in the well, and then laughed!"
"I heard she made all of creation cry! You can't get more evil than that!"
So I misremembered it and attributed Obatala's opinions on Aurora and Goze to all the Orisha, my bad.
Thanks!
DeleteThis was more player speculation based on obatala's rant. He was talking about the difference between mages he considered good and mages he considered evil.
The tweets are based on obatala saying things aurora did that she didnt actually do, but that could be misconstrued as her.
Obatala also only knows the two of them from hearsay - he never met either. His understanding is that Aurora tried to change a bunch of things at Ragnarok, whereas in the end Goze decided to support destiny's mandates; so Aurora = bad, Goze = good.
DeleteHow do the Orisha not go completely batshit on both the Aesir and the Deva, considering the Orisha are all about finding and meeting your destiny, and both pantheons are about trying to escape it (the Aesir escaping ragnarok and the Deva ending destiny through enlightenment).
ReplyDeleteTechnically speaking, the Aesir aren't trying to escape Ragnarok because they don't know it's happening. Odin knows. That's it. He's never actually told anyone, and as a God with Ultimate Manipulation and the Power of The Wyrd he could easily ensure that no one in his Pantheon ever found out. And other than Ragnarok, the Aesir seem to have a healthy respect for Fate and they should probably get along fine.
DeleteThe Deva are another matter entirely. The Deva firmly believe that Fate is an antagonistic force keeping all things bound to Samsara (hence the abundance of Magic Gods and complete lack of Prophecy Gods amongst them). The Orisha and the Deva probably hate each other.
The same way any culture doesnt go completely batshit over another. Doing so would be suicide. Sometimes they rage out and do anyway. There are usually consequences to that.
DeleteThe Aesir concept of fate is so foreign to the Orisha idea of destiny anyway that they may not even consider them the same anyway. Destiny is very personal to the Orisha - everyone has one of their own, and there are no stories of foretold events that affect everyone and can't be avoided. The Aesir Ragnarok problem is very culturally different, so different Orisha might think it's something totally different (but then again, they also might think it was a lot of peoples' individual destinies colliding). Some of them might even think that Ragnarok is what happens if the Aesir fail at their own destinies... which they seem to be pretty good at.
DeleteThe Deva concept of Fate is also very different from the Yoruba one, so the same issues apply. If it is one's personal destiny to escape samsara, then that's cool; if it's not, then that's bad. Fate isn't a universal force to the Orisha the way it is to some other cultures, so they won't necessarily think of it the same way.
Fate is a universal force in Scion, but how it appears to different gods and pantheons is up to the Storyteller. :)
How do you deal with pantheons like the Deva who feel that they have completely escaped fate and are no longer beholder to it? Moksha only lasts for a scene, which doesn't seem to jive with total escape.
DeleteThere are a few options available to handle it.
DeleteFirstly, Hinduism has many, many variations, and not all of them believe that the Gods have managed to escape Fate. They all do believe that that is the Ultimate Goal, but they haven't all gotten there yet. The sects dedicated to particular deities usually only believe that their own God has achieved permanent Moksha, so Vaishnavites believe that only Vishnu has done it, Shaivites that only Shiva has, Shaktas that only Kali/Shakti has and so forth. Then there are factions like the Smartas that believe that all Gods are so enlightened, and their opposites the Samkhya, that hold that the Gods are irrelevant in the equation of enlightenment. You need simply use the version of Hinduism that supports your needs.
You could also just decree that mortals are idiots and cannot tell the difference between Moksha the Boon and Moksha the ideal.
You could also go with the simplest explanation: The Deva are delusional/lying. Sadly, certain aspects of Hinduism simply do not gel well with Scion's framework, like the sheer power level ascribed to some of the Gods and the whole 'Buddha-Vishnu' issue.
Thanks for the info, Samudra!
DeleteThe only real complaint I have about Moksha the boon is that activating it in front of mortals can get you fatebonds. :P
Thank you for this post. One of my players is a Scion of Oshun, so this was very useful information. :)
ReplyDeleteOshun is a super badass, I'm glad you got some stuff for her Scion!
DeleteNew to scion so bear with me please. From my admittedly quick reading of the magic boon if I understand correctly magic can be used to increase luck and good fortune. Would a scion who only used this typic of magic to help people be more successful at fulfilling their destinies be accepted as long as they prove they didn't perform "bad magic"? Because if so I think I may have my first character concept :)
ReplyDeleteFighting fire with fire, eh? :) I love this as a character concept. An Orisha Scion with Magic could try to justify it by saying that they only use it to combat evil magic-use by witches, or to help people who are struggling to achieve their destinies.
DeleteThe Orisha probably still won't trust them a whole bunch. Sometimes peoples' destinities are supposed to include suffering and hardship, so taking easy shortcuts is still harmful to them achieving that and the mage might still be screwing it up by interfering. They could also make the wrong call about what their target is supposed to do in their destiny and push them in the wrong direction, even with good intentions. Or they could just be lying, and secretly totally an evil wizard. Some Orisha (especially those with Magic themselves) might accept the Scion's attempts to use Magic for good, and others might say there's no such thing.
But it sounds like an awesome and fun concept, so I say run with it!