Our goals for the Water purview involved both greater versatility of concept and lessened confusing lack of definition, which seem like they might conflict but in the end worked together harmoniously for us. The old Water purview had several levels that were basically the same "water-bending" boon at just different power levels, which were useful but not very exciting to buy over and over, and it also leaned heavily on ideas of scientific uses of water (Changing States and Dessicate were particularly egregious examples of this) that didn't fit the game's mythic flavor. It was also oddly non-specific about things that could be used for various mythic water purposes - swimming, sailing, interacting with water creatures and so on - which was probably in an attempt to make it unilaterally useful for all water gods but in practice made it a sort of grey mish-mash of powers.
So, the new purview makes an attempt to provide boons for a variety of different kinds of Water-using Scions, growing into a variety of different kinds of watery gods, and make each easier to understand and apply while providing a ton of options for water in both positive and negative dimensions. Geoff is very excited. He will dredge all the lakes.
As with the previous release of Sky, we have a few quick rules tweaks that help people model doing stuff in water. In no particular order, these are:
- Everyone moves at half their normal speed while in the water.
- Everyone is at half their normal DV while in the water.
- Everyone suffers from a -5 success penalty to any physical action rolls while in the water; this penalty is lessened by one success for each dot of Athletics you have.
If you want to talk about the new purview or have questions to ask, throw them in the comments below! We'll be out rocking a pre-release tournament today, but we'll answer ASAP!
I love it. It's beautiful. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou're very welcome!
DeleteGoing through all the goodies right now. Think I found a typo!
ReplyDeleteSIREN SONG
Cost: 2 Legend per use
Dice Pool: Strength + Presence <--- Strength on this social style boon.
It "seems" like a social boon....but the social knacks can already do this. So its the strength of the water, your powerful force of attraction.
DeleteBut the flavor text is all about the feelings and emotions of the sailors. How does that translate into the physical strength of water?
DeleteWhat they refer to as "The Call of the Sea" - the mysterious, almost-mystic pull that the Oceans have for many people. Put it in game terms, and you have the boon in question.
DeleteSo Afraid of the Dark is being changed to strength because of the strength of your darkness?
DeleteNope. Each boon is unique and we considered each one carefully for mechanics and flavor balance when we made it. Don't be a jerk.
DeleteJust looking for some kind of internal consistency.
DeleteThe internal consistency is that we evaluate every power, on its own merits, in context of its purview and in comparison with others. This is far from the only magical power that rolls a physical stat despite being sorcery instead of physical action.
DeleteI would love to take you on the entire journey of our thought processes for each and every boon ever. Lord knows there are a lot of them, and that over time we've evaluated and re-evaluated and decided some things could be better and changed them. But neither you nor I have got the time, so you'll have to trust us when we say that we wrote Siren Song to be about the lure of the ocean, not the lure of you; that your social stats therefore don't matter to it; that it would be silly to use social stats anyway because there's already a social knack that does this exact thing one-on-one; and that if there was an Attribute we liked better there, we would certainly have used it.
And the beauty of it is, as always, that your group can always house rule it if you don't like it. So no worries. :)
No, my storyteller only okays things if you okay things.
DeleteSounds like he has the right idea.
DeleteIt seems to be the social attributes of the water itself which are making the attack. Maybe this is one of those situations where an unusual roll might be a better fit? Something like Water Boons as dice versus an unmodified Integrity + Willpower + Legend?
DeleteThat would definitely solve peoples' problems with it, although I hesitate to stick a weird roll in there that isn't being used anywhere else. But something to think about.
DeleteYou have a similar but not identical precedent of rolling your number of boons in Magic. I'm not sure if that is the right solution but it was something that came to mind.
DeleteThough thinking about it further, it would probably be more balanced as Water Boons vs unmodified Integrity + Willpower, without Legend adding to the roll. That way it would be roughly 21 vs 20 dice at maximum investment for both.
The difference there is that Magic also has an established dedicated resist system with those boons (the Fate purviews opposed roll). This would be a unique roll vs. a unique resist roll, for just one boon, which I'm pretty loath to do, especially when the objection is not that it doesn't work mechanically as-is but that some people don't like the specific stat attached. It seems like changing that stat, either in individual games as they like or on our end, is way preferable to reinventing the wheel.
DeleteSea Sense and Commander of Currents use a water rating as epics mechanic. Could you do something similar with Siren Song since the mechanic already exists within that purview?
DeleteLooks like you put an extra dot on Denizen of the Deep! There's also a loose Mbr< on Sovereign of the Seas.
ReplyDeleteBesides that, this rewrite is wonderful! I was quite worried that the water "immunity" was going to turn into an affinity or disappear, but I'm glad it's still in there. I also love that Create Water is now a 1-dot, because until I hit legend 5, it was nigh-impossible for me to use any Water boons in the various situations we were in. How thoughtful!
Also, I was wondering on the thought process behind Drown's dice pool. I think it only took me by surprise because my current character has 2 Intelligence and 0 Medicine (which means I won't likely invest in that boon).
Thanks for the typo notes!
DeleteBecause Drown is not so much about manipulating existing water as it is about mentally willing new water into existence in a specific complicated place (inside someone), we decided to go with Intelligence as the roll. Medicine refers to the fact that you're meddling with a living body.
If you don't have the pool for Drown, you can always wait for Watery Grave at the high level, which rolls Stamina. :)
Awesome that Water was finished this week. I sincerely hope it does not take too much time away from classes!
ReplyDeleteLet's see...
There does not appear to be a resistance roll to Baptism.
Also, I cannot find any boon that allows you to control water in a general way. Riptide comes close, but seems more about picking up or moving objects or people.
DeleteNothing like making a stream change direction, or water in a pool to splash someone, or dance around artistically, or parting a lake or river. Am I overlooking something?
I also noticed the lack of resistance roll on Baptism and was actually surprised to find that it wasn't 'only for the willing.' Baptizing your unwilling enemy doesn't really seem like a baptism. It seems like it should be only for those who are willing to make a commitment to it.
DeleteOr maybe I'm just taking the name too literally.
Noticed that you could get up to tricks with Deep Horror, where you summon the horror then destroy the water and stop paying the cost to make him rampage.
DeleteOr psychopomp him behind enemy lines or near a city and stop paying the cost so he has to smash through.
Or either of the above in multiples, since it seems like you can summon multiple Deep Horrors.
Wait. Did I just describe the entire plot of Godzilla?
now all we need is the Amatsukami remake...
DeleteBaptism could say only for the willing. Thank you for catching that.
DeleteI would be lying if I said Godzilla never occurred to us while writing that boon.
DeleteWe would allow shenanigans within reason, but nothing overly cheesy. Psychopomp it to the middle of a city and enjoy incidental collateral damage as it leaves, sure, although it'll go to the nearest body of water rather than the original one it came from and we probably wouldn't have it do anything that was particularly important (i.e., it's not going to destroy your arch-enemy on the way or anything). You definitely can summon multiple Horrors, although maintaining them for any length of time would be difficult.
Going up to the anons above, we intentionally did not include nearly as many boons that fell under the "water-bending" kind of idea, for a few reasons. One was just that those boons are very vague and hard to quantify, which was a major problem the old purview suffered from - when your boon is just "do whatever with water", STs and players alike don't really know how to use it and the rules needed to explain every possibility quickly get out of control. The other was that most such powers really aren't particularly mythic; gods of water may drag ships to their doom (Undertow), grant them fair sailing (Sea Sense), suddenly rise up and flood the area (Flash Flood and Deluge) or even drag things to and fro with their currents (Riptide), but they generally don't do telekinesis effects with them or stuff that has only cosmetic purposes. So we didn't put much of that in, since it struck us as more of a modern fantasy convention than one that applied to the sea/river/whatever gods of ancient myth.
I would note, though, that some of those effects are duplicateable with creative boon usage - for example, reversing the current isn't doable on its own, but you could use Multitasking + Riptide to move a bunch of things counter to the current and achieve the same effect. Things like artistic visual water effects that don't really affect anything would probably be allowable as stunts with the use of other water boons, within reason.
You guys did so phenomenally with this rewrite! Thank you so much! I just had a question as to how one might actually take a whirlpool they have already created "into a waterless area"? Unless we can store it in a water bottle mayhaps?
ReplyDeleteWe would assume the little guy stays cohesive once it's created, so it won't run out and sink into the ground like normal water. Hooray, magic! :) It might be more comfortable in a bottle or canteen or something, though.
DeleteWas Riptide supposed to be a five dot? It's listed after Denizen of the Deep which is at 6.
ReplyDeleteDenizen and Riptide should both be five. Thanks!
DeleteThis rewrite is.... weird. Not many other ways to say it. Some Boons are underwhelming (Sea Sense), others are awesome (Deep Horror), some are insane (Bounty of the Sea... dear hells)
ReplyDeleteOne question at the moment...
For Sovereign of the Sea, is it possible to claim a body of water should its current sovereign die or be similarly indisposed? Like, if I was a Netjer Scion and Sobek died, would it be possible for me to become the new Nile?
Hey, I like Sea Sense. It may seem underwhelming but when you consider that for a lot of cultures the Sea is like...everything, and that there are several myths that are just like 'look at these people, they're so good at sailing, they must be blessed by the gods or something LOOK AT THOSE SAILING SKILLS' it makes a lot of sense to me that there'd be a boon entirely about making you a better sailor in the Water purview.
DeleteI don't necessarily think it should be three dots (Legend 3 seems more fitting) but it does do A LOT so I'm not going to complain...
I also like Sea Sense, but it feels more like a rank 2 boon.
DeleteRenewal could swap places with it, so it is at the same level as Heal/Infect. Because right now you get to actual healing faster with Water than Health.
Bounty of the Sea is insane. Specifically the ability to accumulate tons of 7 dot relics over time.
DeleteRenewal is more comparable to Self Healing than it is to Heal/Infect - Renewal lets you heal only your own injuries, while Heal/Infect works on others.
DeleteHeal/Infect only works on others and not yourself, and only lethal or bashing. Not both in the same application.
DeleteSo many things in here!
DeleteSea Sense is intended to model the stories of ocean/river/lake gods aiding or impeding sailors on them, of which there are a lot across different cultures. Guys like Njord, Yam, Poseidon et al screw around with ships all the time, so we wanted that in there. Plus, it's just very useful for you if you happen to be traveling via boat.
Bounty is definitely powerful, which is why it's restricted to, at the maximum possible level, five times per story, and unless you're in your Sovereign location you can't reroll in search of a particular result. :)
TU is correct - Renewal only heals yourself, so it's comparable to the Stamina knacks you could get at any level, and not as powerful as Heal.
Griff, on first look, we would probably rule against letting you take over someone else's Sovereign area, even if they're dead. However, ST prerogative could always overrule us on that one in specific games.
I think people are saying Bounty is insanely powerful even with those restrictions.
DeleteI think a large part of that would be based on how long stories are for your group. By that legend, we run 6-7 month stories.
DeleteYeah, our stories are about 2-3 months tops.
DeleteEven with 8 hour long sessions every week.
That would definitely make it more zany. If your group is running very short stories, you may want to restrict how often it can be used even harder - maybe even just a flat once per story no matter how many Water boons you have.
DeleteOkay so I've been refreshing this page all day but I actually took the time to read the whole purview instead of just going 'NEW PURVIEW NEW PURVIEW NEW PURVIEW' and telling you guys how awesome you are right away.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that this is vastly improved because instead of just being a Master of Water, it definitely feels more...mythical. Each of these boons feels like it could be out of The Odyssey or the Argonautica, and resonates with Viking sailors, and even with more (relatively) modern Pirate adventure stories. And I like that a lot. I know that's your goal and while not every one of these boons screams 'AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME YOUR HEAD HAS EXPLODED' like the Thunder purview, it definitely says 'this is Water and this is how it is represented mythically' and I LOVE that.
Aye, the water purview may be a harsh mistress, but she be a beauty.
I hate to say it, but...any plans on what's next?
Thanks for all the awesomes :)
DeleteWe have a big announcement coming next saturday. So you'll have to wait and see.
I am literally off to my new job at this very moment. I'll read and review in a day or two once I'm settled, but I'm sure it's great anyway :D
ReplyDeleteCongrats on new job! I hope
DeleteExcellent work, as always you two!
ReplyDeleteThis feels MUCH more mythic and cool than the previous Purview.
Thank you so much for getting this done despite your hectic workload right about now! You guys are the best!
That's.....really all I've got to say right now. Everyone else seems to have the questions and critiques angle covered. So good job, and I can't wait to see what's coming up next!
Glad you liked it!
Delete:)
DeleteThis is awesome! :)
ReplyDeleteJust reading it gave me inspiration for a Scion. Probably a daughter of Tangaroa. Once again you guys rock!
Always room for more Tangaroa love!
DeleteOverall - DEFINITE improvement over the original version, and I heartily concur that it has a much more mythic feel than mere waterbending. I do have some concerns about game mechanics and balance:
ReplyDeleteI agree that Siren Song feels a bit weird with Strength as its dice pool - Charisma or Appearance seems more fitting to me, like the Boon takes one's existing natural ability to attract people and uses the power of the water to increase its range.
The DV/movement bonuses of Favor of the Waves vs. Commander of Currents seems awkward to me - so when you have Favor of the Waves, your DV is (1/2 DV + (2 x Water Boons))? With Commander of Currents, what if you have Epic Dexterity 8, but only Water 4 - isn't it a penalty to have Commander of Currents at that point (particularly if you've already paid the permanent Willpower cost for it), or can you choose to base your DV on your Water Boons only if it would be an improvement?
Can a victim of Drown make multiple attempts to clear the water from their lungs? If they have Drown dropped on them in the middle of combat, I realize that the victim has to make the tactical choice between defending himself and actively not drowning, but is it possible? Likewise, does someone assisting a Drowning person cause or require the Drowning person to become Inactive or anything? That is to say, can I keep stunting my back-flips and fighting like normal while an ally does some quick mouth-to-mouth?
Aqua Vita might benefit from clarification that a Scion "may heal any number of people he chooses to use this Boon on provided that he pays the cost for each". (Unless it really is just a big AoE heal, in which case never mind).
How does Sovereign of the Seas work for seas that are probably already claimed? I'm sure that Sedna, Tangaroa, Nuwa, Ryujin, and Chalchiuhtlicue would have a few things to say about the Pacific. Could a newly-minted God of California (or whatever) make a similar claim? Or do you actually have to flood a new area (ie, the San Fernando Valley Sea) in order to claim it as a sea?
I like the symmetry with Sky and Thunder where Deluge, Watery Grave, Undertow, Whirlpool, and Commander of Currents are concerned.
Contrarily, Riptide and Wind Warp seem way out of whack to me - the wording and effects of the two Boons are nearly identical, except that Riptide is three levels higher, costs an extra Legend, and can only be used against targets that are in water. Does all of this balance out the fact that Riptide offers twice as much Lifting Capacity?
The problem with siren,....was charisma and appearance are already kinda doing stuff like that. Or in a knack rewrite should definitely be doing stuff like that. If you're good at charisma, it feels bad to have a boon that does what your knack does. Also I think the flavor text is just throwing people.
DeleteMathmatically commander of the currents might not be for everyone. Its an option for people that it works for. And something you dont have to pay for if you prefer your normal dv.
The drowning victim should get a chance to help themselves against the drown every action instead of taking a normal action. Assistants cant assist on the same tick that you take an action, so you arent inactive as they help you, but you also arent moving or backflipping.
Aqua vita should not be an aoe heal. Changing/checking wording.
Sovereign of the seas has to be a new thing. The idea is that the seas that exist, were created by people using this in most places. The sea/river should be your own thing.
Yeah, symmetry was a big goal of ours.
Didnt have room for riptide low. Its double lifting and double speed to help mitigate that.
I just removed the last clause on AV, since the proposed rewrite had the same problems. It shouldn't confuse anyone into thinking it AOEs now. :)
DeleteThe flavor text is definitely throwing me. :(
DeleteIt uses words like seductive that in context, shouldnt mean those things, but on a quick read do give the assumption of social-ness.
DeleteAs a helper, remember that sirens are not attractive, nor are they well liked once you are near them. It is only their song that is attractive. They would fail appearance and charisma rolls.
I'll concede that a few of my objections may be somewhat situational situations, but you still haven't sold me on a couple of these points.
DeleteIf I were a character with more Dexterity than Water, I'd feel pretty stupid about paying a dot of Willpower AND lose a DV bonus just for the sake of being able to breathe water. Someone with more Dexterity than Sky isn't easier to hit when he's using Flight than when he's not (though admittedly, he also doesn't get a DV bonus if he happens to have more Sky than Dexterity).
A further point of clarification on the wording of Commander of Currents - does Water take the place of Epic Dexterity? In other words, would my DV be just be [Epic Water], or would it be (1/2 Legend) + 1/2(Dexterity + Athletics) + [Epic Water]?
Also, does the "loses all negatives to movement or physical rolls" include DV? Because if that's not the case, then DV would then be 1/2((1/2 Legend) + 1/2(Dexterity + Athletics) + [Epic Water]). Between Favor of the Waves and Commander of Currents, it seems like it would be easier if one of these simply allowed you to ignore the "1/2 DV while in water" rule.
The way Drown reads (at least to me): once per tick, anyone who can take an action may attempt to pump the water out of the victim's lungs. There isn't anything in the description of the Boon that indicates that the victim of Drown HAS to do anything about it. In other words, the way this is written, I can continue attacking, backflipping, running around, or doing whatever I want while my five Followers perform life-saving measures on me and pump water out of my lungs (as long as only one of them is doing it on any given tick) - if I happen to have an action on one of those ticks, I can do what I want with it without hindering the CPR that's being performed on me.
In my opinion, the double speed (which I missed on my first read-through) and double lifting balance out the fact that it only has utility on or under water. Paying an extra point of Legend to use it and an extra 12-15 XP just to have it in the first place makes it feel underpowered, especially considering that the guy with Sky can do the same thing, more often, and at a lower level. My suggestion for a remedy would be to move Riptide to 2 and change the cost to match Wind Warp. Bump Siren Song up to 5, and instead of making Siren Song a mirror for Social Knacks, make it a long-lasting enchantment on an area of water that draws people to it - something that would really suck when combined with Labyrinthine Lingering.
Re: Sovereign of the Seas - thank you for the clarification about new uses of it. My question is more about existing bodies of water and past uses of the power. I know the Inue aren't necessarly "canon", but the multiple Shua problem is solved by different Purviews being represented by different aspects of the element. So, just because Sedna is the soul of water as represented by the oceans doesn't mean that she can't have a Scion who is the soul of water as represented by the lakes or rivers. So, in the case of the Pacific, let's say that Tangaroa has Sovereign of the Seas on the Pacific - what are Ryujin, Chalchiuhtlicue, Nuwa, and Sedna supposed to use it on? Is the Pacific just big enough that everyone gets to "own" it next to their patch of territory? Likewise - does Poseidon get the Aegean and Ionian Seas while Yam gets the rest of the southern Mediterranean?
Shoot, that reply didn't look nearly as long when I wrote it in Notepad. Sorry to blow up the comments! :/
DeleteLike I said, you dont need to feel stupid for doing it....just dont do it. Just like some rolls make some boons not great choices for some characters. For someone with minimal water but lots of dex, its not a good boon choice. Only if you have max dex is it ever really a downgrade. Only a max dex, max athletics type person is gonna be better off without this boon if they're also max water. If you have max water and even nine epic dex, commander of the waves is better. Also, no formula, just the epic water as DV.
DeleteWe could add a line to drown about ....i guess still having the world make sense? But...we try not to do that? Like....common sense stuff like that I feel shouldnt need to be spell out? But maybe. Anne think on it, also that dmg should be unsoakable. not armor ignoring.
We arent really planning on moving any boons around or editing any of them except for minor changes. But appreciate the thought that went into it.
Well...no one gets oceans. Thats not part of the power. So it wouldnt be a problem then. There are hundreds of bays, seas, rivers in those areas that they all could be using. Something like your suggestion about poseidon would be accurate, but specific divisions would be up to the ST.
Isn't the raw attractiveness of your voice a function of appearance? I thought appearance worked through all senses: including hearing.
DeleteYou literally sound attractive.
That is our point. The sirens arent attractive though, they're using a power.
DeleteSo its the raw attractiveness of the water?
DeleteNot exactly. There's a folkloric/mythic idea of the call of the sea - that sailors can never stay away from it for too long to settle down on land, that it has a strange fascination for those who are near it for too long. It doesn't necessarily mean the sea is "attractive" in the sense of a person you think is attractive or a painting you think is attractive, but more "attractive" in the way a magnet is attractive to iron.
DeleteThere is definitely a lot of confusion over this one right now, though, so we'll go look at the wording some more.
TU, Sovereign can specifically only create/own a body of water of 100,000 square miles or 4,000 miles in length - that's roughly the size of the Mediterranean for bodies of water or the Nile for rivers. The Pacific is way too big and owned by way too many people, and nobody could have used this boon to create and own it. Instead, Tangaroa might own the Tasman Sea, Chalchiuhtlicue the Gulf of Mexico, Ryujin the Sea of Japan, Sedna Baffin Bay and so on. And Sedna could coexist with her Scions if they wanted to own other coastal waters, or maybe create an impressive lake or river inland to call their own.
(Apropos of not much, but while Nuwa has Water because we haven't rewritten China, we aren't sure she'd actually have that. The Dragon Kings are the more likely owners of the South and East China Seas.)
Yeah, I think you are right. It sounds less like water having an appearance attribute and more like water having a charisma attribute.
DeleteKind of, but also kind of not. Water doesn't have a personality or sentience, so things like "Charisma" don't really apply to it. It's a magical/mystical quality that doesn't really model well when using human-style attributes that water doesn't actually have.
DeleteI want to make a joke about magnets, but I'll refrain. :)
DeleteMy head cannon for Siren's Call is that you literally need the strength of voice to be heard over the sound of the waves, distance, area, etc. Keep in mind that there are other things in watery legend then Siren's that call people to their watery doom: Puuca's ninny and whine and drown people in bogs; the Nixie/Neck of Scandanavia,Germany, etc sing, but they also flirt and draw people closer; Basque Lamia are similar to the like ... I can totally see a spirit that duplicates a crying child to draw people closer or a screaming woman to make people run forward. I can see a man crying for help on a rock, begging his sailors to rescue him as they get crashed on the rocks as well.
My point is that I like it, and I like the mechanics :)
Oh yeah. The idea behind the boon is awesome and mythical. It's the activation roll (or flavor text if you prefer) that has everyone wigging out.
DeleteI look at it as a kind of 'pull' in that one would feel themselves somewhat moving towards the sea. Understandably, many people can view that as a form of social compulsion, but I am inclined to view it as being more akin to Tidal Interference, where one's strength comes into play. I understand that they both do different things mechanically, but conceptually they are not too very different.
DeleteThe description is obviously social in nature, not physical. So either the roll is screwy or the description is screwy.
DeleteHonestly, you guys were on a roll with all of your previous releases, but this one just falls flat to me.
ReplyDeleteLike griffinguy mentioned, it's weird... to me it feels more like a bag-o-boons, kinda like the old Magic was.
Some like Siren Song feel random and out of place (also, what's with the activation roll?). Sea Sense is so underwhelming, it might as well be a 1-dot boon. All of the undersea-treasure ones are weird and kinda overpowered. Commander of Currents... so you have to be a demigod to not drown? Denizen of the Deep is a 6-dot that's pretty much the same as Animal's 1-dot. Baptism is weird... I think it's cool but definitely underwhelming for an 8-dot boon. Deep Horror is awesome but needs some balancing (and again, feels more like something Animal should do).
And you took away waterbending which was the one cool thing about the original version of the purview, what gives?
I love the idea of Siren Song. That is really mythic.
DeleteBut you are right about the activation roll being confusing.
Nah, you can not drown as not a Demigod. Epic Stamina and Whale's Breath already exist, and free immunity to water's effects forever and always at Legend 2 was overpowered, which is why we moved it.
DeleteDenizen is actually way better than Animal Communication or Gaia's Touch (which it also basically duplicates); for one thing, it applies to all animals that fit the criteria where Animal only applies to a totem animal, and for another, it allows you to use social knacks on all these plants and animals, whereas Animal users are generally confined to Animal Command and vanilla Charisma rolls.
Waterbending is discussed above, but basically, it's not a mythic power and doesn't really happen in any myths we could come up with. You can still find ways to stunt/combine powers to do things like that, but it's not a basic toolkit power for water gods.
Sorry you didn't enjoy this one as much, but thanks for the feedback!
I think part of the problem is that waterbending is really, really fun. So even if it is more mythically accurate, it feels like a huge sacrifice to playability in the name of accuracy.
DeleteI think most players are socialized with waterbending. We are surrounded by it in popular media that depicts any kind of waterbending. When a new player tries Scion, she is going to want to know where the waterbending is.
Besides the general point of "well thats fine, this is a mythological game, it doesnt need to have everything pop culture dictates",
DeleteIm just not sure that is accurate. Doing the elementals, we watched avatar. Before that, I had never seen water bending or thought of water "bending" as a thing people with water powers would do.
Also in that same vein its very difficult to make things interesting, make boons different, when that same thinking leads to every element wanting to have a power that lets them just throw their element at an enemy and then, taking avatar as an example, buying basically one boon that lets you do everything possible with water. Which was the problem with old water.
A 10 second search on the internet turned up:
DeletePercy Jackson (Percy Jackson & the Olympians)
King Triton (Disney)
Aquaman (DC Comics)
Aqualad (DC Comics)
Bai Tza (Jackie Chan Adventure)
Ayase Terada (S-CRY-ED)
Crystal (Marvel Comics)
Nanami (Needless Zero)
Zan (DC Comics)
Drowned Ophelia (Brütal Legend)
The Drowning Doom (Brütal Legend)
Cure Aqua/Karen Minazuki (Yes! Precure 5 GOGO!/Precure 5)
Cure Marine/Erika Kurumi (Heartcatch Precure)
Saleen (Aladdin: the Animated Series)
Tier Harribel (Bleach)
Waterbenders (Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend Of Korra)
Juvia Lockser (Fairy Tail)
Aquarius (Fairy Tail)
Mirajane Strauss (Fairy Tail)
Erza Scarlet (Fairy Tail) ; using Sea Empress Armor
Pisces (Fairy Tail)
Acqua of the Back/William Orville (To Aru Majutsu no Index)
Sasha Kreuzhev (To Aru Majutsu no Index)
Archangel Gabriel (To Aru Majutsu no Index)
Toby (Gormiti); in his Gormiti form
Water Gormiti (Gormiti)
Arqua (Dragon Ball Z)
Tori (Power Rangers Ninja Storm)
Maddie (Power Rangers Mystic Force)
Ivan Ooze (Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie)
Hydro Hog (Mighty Morphin Alien Rangers)
Kevin (Power Rangers Samurai)
Cygnus Hyoga (Saint Seiya)
Aquarius Camus (Saint Seiya)
Delgel Camus (Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas)
Isaac McDougal (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Water Demon (Charmed)
Sea Hag (Charmed)
Toa Tuyet (Bionicle)
Toa Helryx (Bionicle)
Other Toa of Water (Bionicle)
The Elemental lord of Water (Bionicle)
Toa Gali (Bionicle)
Toa Hahli (Bionicle)
Turaga Nokama (Bionicle)
Bohrok Gahlok and Bahrag queens (Bionicle)
Vezok (Bionicle)
Nektann (Bionicle)
Kiina (Bionicle)
Gi (Captain Planet)
Captain Planet (Captain Planet)
Cleo Sertori (H2O - Just Add Water)
Charlotte Watsford (H2O Just Add Water); <Temporary
Sailor Mercury (Sailor Moon)
Sailor Neptune (Sailor Moon)
The Watery (Card Captor Sakura)
Madoushi (Cardcaptor Sakura: The Movie)
Water release users (Naruto)
Pain (Naruto); via the Rinnegan
Sage of the Six Paths (Naruto); via the Rinnegan
Water Hazard (Ben 10 Ultimate Alien)
Bivalvan (Ben 10 Ultimate Alien)
Demyx (Kingdom Hearts)
Irma Lair (W.I.T.C.H)
Cassidy (W.I.T.C.H)
Tracy Strauss (Heroes)
Water mane of Mane-online
Om (Air Gear)
Layla/Aisha (Winx Club)
Orishans (Ben 10)
Kojiro (Katekyo Hitman Reborn)
Yamamoto Takeshi (Katekyo Hitman Reborn)
The Flood (Doctor Who: The Waters of Mars)
Omi (Xiaolin Showdown)
Yuri Shibuya (Kyou Kara Maoh)
Pearl (Torchwood)
Cure Aqua (Yes! Pretty Cure 5/Yes!Pretty Cure 5 Gogo!)
Mizu Shitataare (Pretty Cure Splash Star)
Sextum (Mahō Sensei Negima)
Users of Fishman Karate/Merman Combat (One Piece)
Hydro (Mortal Kombat: Blood & Thunder)
Mizumi, the Queen of Moraine (Return to Labyrinth)
Drumlin (Return to Labyrinth)
Moulin (Return to Labyrinth)
Penny (Zatch Bell)
Yukihina (Code:Breaker)
Kiyoshi Mitarai (YuYu Hakusho); limited
Aquos Bakugan (Bakugan)
Skulduggery Pleasant (Skulduggery Pleasant)
Valkyrie Cain (Skulduggery Pleasant)
Erin Bates (House of Night)
Jack Ryan (Bioshock)
Subject Delta (Bioshock 2)
Chaos (Sonic the Hedgehog)
Water-type Pokemon (Pokemon)
Bubble Man (Mega Man Series)
Aqua Man (Mega Man Series)
Pump Man (Mega Man Series)
Rain (Mortal Kombat)
Water Lily (Wild Cards)
Various Mercury Adepts (Golden Sun)
Josh and Sophie Newman (The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel)
Gilgamesh (The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel)
Users of Water Magic (The Secrets of the Inmortal Nicolas Flamel)
Nitori Kawashiro (Touhou)
Tsukiumi (Sekirei)
Apolycolelipse (Bluehog Gaming Studio)
Alena (Encantadia)
Amaya/Cielo (Atlantika); portrayed by Iza Calzado
Mercury Adepts (Golden Sun)
Aryana Mendez (Aryana TV_series)
Princess Neptuna (Aryana TV series)
Engkantao Edward (Pedro Penduko at ang mga Engkantao)
Valeriana (Enchanted Garden TV5 Series)
Umi Ryuuzaki (Magic Knight Rayearth)
Aspen Matthews (Fathom)
Jim Groom (Psychic Tale Saga)
Yoshino (Date A Live)
Hydro-Man (Marvel Comics)
Morphling (Dota 2)
Musashi ( Musashi: Samurai Legend); via Sword of Water
Silvermist (Disney Fairies)
Water Fairies (Disney Fairies)
And I know that is not even close to an exhaustive list.
Ive only seen a couple of these....and i really dont remember them....water bending.
DeleteMoving water, sure, but actually just using it to throw jets of water at people.....not sure. When does king triton do it?
I cant remember aquaman "water bending" but i guess by this point in the cartoons he must have to keep up with expectations compared to avatar.
Just watched more sailor moon then Id like to, and it does seem like mercury does....but she doesnt seem to use it to attack much, and more for flair. I guess i dont really need/want to get into a pedantic argument about i though. If this list is all actual water bending, ill secede my point and say its at least to a younger generation a part of alt-pop culture.
Can I just say that OP seems like a troll? Like, I'm always hesitant to label the Negative Nancy a troll, but when AT LEAST three different people have said 'hey Siren's Song has a weird activation roll' and a fourth guy has to go 'HEY WHAT GIVES ON THAT ACTIVATION ROLL HUH???' I just immediately face palm. How many comments do you have to read before you get that Siren's Song's activation roll is unpopular? It's not getting changed. There's a reason it's that way. You don't have to like it. Just don't buy it. And then Sea Sense is 'underwhelming'...Griff's exact words, which has its own thread about it. Just...calling out the troll guys, I'm doing it.
DeleteAnyway.
I feel it's worth mentioning aside from that (since I didn't above) that I'm actually glad you guys made Water Breathing the 'Flight' of Water instead of making it an immediate thing, because I always felt Water Breathing made High Stamina + Whale's Breath pretty much useless. Like, not everybody (almost nobody, really,) gets Water, but the fact remains that VERY few of my players OR me ever got Whale's Breath because why would you? I feel like now, holding your breath is a much bigger deal and breathing underwater suddenly becomes a MUCH bigger deal. It's probably my favorite part about Water.
I'm just a huge fan of getting rid of powers that, right from the get go, get rid of most human problems (looking at you, INNER FURNACE...and you, Holy Fortitude, but you're not nearly as prevalent.) I hope that when the day comes that Stamina is redone, they get the boot with Raise Your Glass. (or at least move WAY up the tier scale)
Not the same Anon, but I have to disagree with the troll comment. While the post was certainly not constructive in a way that offered useful alternatives, it does bring up some very legitimate concerns. Especially in the case of Siren Song where there is a huge difference between the flavor text and our understanding of strength.
DeletePlease remember, Jacob, that most of us are excited about the release of water because we want to use it in our OWN games. It's not unreasonable for us to hope that our voices might inspire sensible change.
I get that, but when there's already more than one thread about Siren's Song's activation roll, and another, currently existing thread about Sea Sense, in which John and Anne are already replying and giving their reasons, and everything involving the flavor text/understanding of strength has already been addressed, it seems like creating another thread criticizing these things seem to be more bullying them into changing it instead of legitimate critique. They have already made their case about both, and they are proud of it.
DeleteIt's great you want to use John and Anne's purview in your game, I do too, and will, but - as they are fond of saying - you can always change it yourself. I fully plan on changing around a few rules (particularly speaking, in Bounty of the Sea, since J&A do Relics differently than me and a 7-dot relic would be catastrophically more powerful than it would be for them.) I've heard somebody comment that their ST won't approve anything unless John and Anne approve it first...in which case, their ST clearly trusts their opinion. And since Siren's Song's dubious activation roll is in their interests for their games, and that's their opinion, then that's how it's going to be. If it doesn't work for your games, then your ST should realize that's the case and change it. Bullying the people who worked really hard for nearly a month to bring this to you is not fair.
tl;dr I don't have an issue with critique and that's why I'm always hesitant to call anyone a troll, but OP was not constructive, rude, and repetitive and that's why I'm still calling troll. Also, don't be afraid to House Rule, JSR wouldn't exist without it. (It took me years to come to terms with that.)
Please understand that this blog is not the most ideal medium for clear and concise formatting. I have personally written replies that were supposed to go in 'threads' but accidentally put them as a 'primary'.
DeleteAlso, John and Anne do have the capacity to make mistakes or bad calls from time to time. I also hope that the large number of people chiming in about Siren Song is not taken as bullying, but instead as an indication that something might sincerely be wrong.
For every time we have been asked to trust them, I hope that sometimes they will trust us if enough people make the same observation.
...and I suppose typing a post for the sole purpose of calling someone a troll and start unnecessary drama is super constructive. Nice thinking there.
DeleteThanks for the answers Anne, and for taking the feedback. I was merely typing thoughts as I read along the Purview, so sorry if it came out brash, but that's just what it was intended to be, feedback.
I don't follow Aquaman much, but there was a period (after he stopped with the harpoon hand and shaved) when he had a hand of solid water given to him by the Lady of the Lake. It let him manipulate water. This was before the recent DC reboot, though.
DeleteThat's probably why he's on the list.
Yep, he definitely did waterbending when he got his magic hand from the... Lady of the Lake was it?
DeleteJust a bit of helpful opinions folks, but if people are stickler's for using the rules on this site, keep in mind, one can also have one of their relics give them the ability to substitute different abilities or attributes for the activation of a boon (say charisma rather than strength, in the case of Siren Song).
DeleteI've been wondering about the zephyr boon and now about whirlpool as well. What do they look like? Do they vary from pantheon to pantheon or god to god? And can you think of any examples of how certain iterations might appear, from mythology or from your own imagination? I'm curious as to what Quetzalcoatl's zephyr might look like compared to Enlil's or Susano-o's whirpool compared to Sobek's for example.
ReplyDeleteWe call them "personified", but I'm not sure they necessarily look like people or animals. The zephyr's probably functionally almost invisible sometimes, since it's just made of air anyway, but Quetzalcoatl might treat it like just a breeze he can talk to rather than anthropomorphizing it, or maybe as a wee cloud serpent like his family members. Zeus, on the other hand, might call up something that resembles the Greek Aurae, the wind-nypmhs. I would say let players stunt within reason and use your judgment for gods. :)
DeleteWhirlpool might vaguely mimic an animal outline (Sobek's, maybe?), or some stylized cultural representation of water (Susanoo?), but it also might just be a little eddy/whirlpool.
I'm glad that the 'Whirlpool' doesn't necessarily have to be a Whirlpool, nor the Zephyr having to actually be a puff of cloud/air, but rather just being a culturally appropriate elemental spirit. We're currently playing a Scion game set during the Third Crusade, and one of the other players, a daughter of Nephthys, was looking into getting Stars but was turned off by 'summon Northern Spirit' because it was very Inuit specific and the New World hadn't even been discovered yet. I feel like with the new 'Purview Personifications' it's more...the incarnation of X, instead of 'specific creature associated with X.'
DeleteAnd that's cool.
As a long-time GM, I have to throw in my 2 cents worth [tough, since there are no pennies in Canada now...]. Any set of rules is a necessary compromise between getting the "feel" right, and applying consistent rules for game play. Nothing will ever make everyone happy, and that's why you have the option of applying "house rules". Obviously, Anne and John [who do this for fun, not as a job] designed something that felt right to them, and published the rules accordingly. Some folks love them, some don't, and that's where you exercise your right to a] use to old rules that you like, and/or b] change what you don't like - most of those who complain seem to have their own ideas about how they think it "should" be, and so they should just use those, if that's what they want to do. The pros and cons have been heard - let's just remember that this is a game, that two folks do because it's fun, and we don't have to use anything we don't like; this isn't Canon. Anne and John will be using these in their games, and so I doubt that they will be making substantial changes to please a few unhappy readers - I know I wouldn't if it were me. To Anne and John - thanks for your work!
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome! It's true that we can't ever make everybody happy, but we still appreciate it when people let us know about stuff that bothers us. You guys are great. :)
DeleteI, as apparently the only one, this Siren song using strength is a pretty cool concept that adheres well to old sailor's tales about the sea.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, i'd like to know, is ''Ancient weapon'' a dot 1 relic? (since one of the ''boring effects'' you can add to a relic is +2 acc or dam) or is there some kind of superior craftsmanship that can be allowed without calling it a relic?
The bonus to the weapons is just from being well-crafted/neat weapons - they aren't relics and will react like normal mundane objects. They're more likely to be things you want to give to your followers/children/other people as gifts than main-line weapons for you to use, since you'll be Legend 7 by this time.
DeleteDefinitely enjoying water so far. Seems like god level gets frighteningly powerful the way you can combine Favor of the Waves and Commander of Currents with a lot of the high level water boons which make water for you to swim around in.
ReplyDeleteSome things I feel uncomfortable about include Siren Song having a really weird activation roll. I'll add my voice to others who are concerned about it. I understand Drown now that you explained it here, but it is worded in a way that feels confusing. Baptism being random feels very strange, especially when you use it on the same person from one story to the next and they keep getting different natures and virtues.
That's about it. The rest are really awesome and fun!
Wording Drown was definitely challenging - now that I'm home again and have a little time, I might be able to take a more leisurely look at it and see if I can make it a little cleaner and less likely to cause confusion. Thanks to everyone for pointing it out.
DeleteWe struggled with Baptism for a while; we wanted the concept included (a few boons that aren't just "do a thing with water" are always helpful in an elemental purview!) and wanted it to have a neat and long-lasting effect, but had some difficulty figuring out the best way to model it. Our original drafts considered changing the Nature permanently, which would be more in line with how baptism is seen in modern culture, but that was too powerful at any level, so having it last until the end of the story was the best compromise we could come up with to make it long enough to matter but not long enough to be busted. Since baptism's core idea is the changing of a person into a "new person", at least spiritually, Nature and Virtues seemed like the only good place to illustrate that (we also spent a lot of time choosing which Natures to have it apply that were the best ones for the general idea of baptism and the responses people have to it in myth and modern culture). We didn't want the person with Water to choose the Nature the target got, however - not only was it a little more powerful than we wanted, since the target could consent but easily be lied to, but we also wanted to try to show the idea that baptism is usually a very personal experience and that different people often respond to it with different new outlooks.
I think I agree with you - it's still weird that the baptism "goes away" at a certain point, even if that point is fairly far away. Our stories are very long at god-level, so if your stories are shorter than ours, probably it will be even weirder since it'll feel like something that changes more often/arbitrarily. Some of the boon's effectiveness will also be up to a player's roleplaying, as well - someone who ignores the change of Nature/Virtue because they just wanted the extra channels or WP is going to run counter to the spirit of the boon, whereas someone who embraces those as changes to their character's personality, even temporary ones, will probably have a more interesting ride.
I feel you, though.
Yes, it is kind of a strange catch-22.
DeleteIf Baptism always gives the same person a random result, then they end up effectively schizophrenic as they keep changing nature and virtues over years of their life.
If Baptism always gives the same person the same result, so they can renew their faith, then they might never ask to be baptized again if the player dislikes the result they got.
Right. The second one's too restrictive unless the baptizer or baptizee gets to actively choose what they get, and that would be probably overpowered and still not flexible enough for characters that might grow and change outlook later.
DeleteI think the best approach for the fact that baptism changes can occur with different Natures/Virtues from story to story is to try to look at it as that particular person undergoing various metamorphoses as their circumstances and adventures affect them. People baptized at different times in their lives might have had completely different experiences with it; so a person baptized with this boon might gain different outlooks for the story based on what was happening to them or how they were feeling. New stories bring with them new challenges and emotions, so baptism might not always have the same effect each time. It's not that their personality is unstable so much as that, like everyone, their outlook changes constantly with their experiences, and the Baptism boon is just magnifying that past where normal people would demonstrate it.
This might be a weird, unnecessary clause (especially at Legend 9) but what if Baptism was permanent on mortals, but only per-story for other Scions because of the 'force of their divine personalities' or etc. A mortal with 5 dots of a single virtue and changing their nature completely after being baptized by a God does not seem terribly 'overpowered' - they could become a fiery preacher, a Crusader for their God, etc, but all of their zeal would be on a mortal level, not the Scion's.
DeleteAgain, it's probably unnecessary, but it would feel a bit more 'believable' given the idea of Baptism as a life commitment and connection with one's God. Since another Scion is of the stuff of Gods it makes sense they'd 're-write' themselves eventually, whereas a mortal would not.
Just a suggestion.
Hmm, that's actually a great point - we have done that before with other boons. I'll run it by John when he's back from rehearsal and see if that's something that would work well. :)
DeleteSo I know that you two have put a lot of effort into writing these revamped purviews, but you also put a lot of effort into writing your other homebrew stuff for the purviews before the massive rewrite. So the question is, will you still make those other boons available somewhere on your site for STs and players still interested in using them? I mean, where's the love for fluid endurance?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm curious about the decision to completely remove the shape changing boons like Cloud Body and Liquid Form from your roster. Were they not mythic enough?
As we noted back when we started doing the purview rewrites, we're not hosting the old purviews anymore once they're replaced. We think the new ones are way better and won't be using the old ones, and if we tried to archive every old version of things whenever we made changes, we'd go bananas.
DeleteFluid Endurance, and the other level 2s like it (Wind Reading has also already gone the way of the dinosaur) ended up just not being very interesting, when we went back over them. They were adding more dice adders in a game that's already kind of bloated with them, and being the same across all the elemental purviews is something we're trying to stay away from a little more. They did have some neat thematic ideas, but we're going to try to represent those elsewhere.
Right in one on Cloud Body and Liquid Form - they don't appear in any myths or with any gods doing them, for the most part, and therefore were booted out. Also, they were hella overpowered, even at level 9 - one game of Sangria on a rampage where people literally couldn't touch her was enough to make that abundantly clear.
Looking back over your changes after your reply I totally agree with you. I think one reason that stuck out is simply because the other elemental purviews haven't been rewritten yet, so Fire has dice adders which Water does not, but I'm assuming now those will also go the way of the do-do. Also, I realized that not much has changed aside from water bending vanishing (which I'll admit, despite it's lack of mythic appeal was pretty cool), so my initial "ARGH Change is bad!" freak out has abated.
DeleteSecond, I started thinking that all the various 'body' boons are also holdovers from WoD (Form of Blood, Tenebrous Form, etc.) and as such can be booted.
Three Last things:
1) Deluge has no unit for radius
"causes an area with radius (ft, in, km, mi?) equal to the Scion's successes"
2) Is Aqua Vita single target only without Multitasking?
3) What happens at the outer limit of Flash Flood (or Deluge for that matter) if the topography can't support 300 ft deep mini-seas? For example, if I pop Flash Flood on a flat plain, will it maintain a perfect 100 yard tall wall of water a mile out from me, so that drivers on I-80 see a massive cliff face of ocean? What happens if I pop it while traveling on top of the ocean? In the ocean? In the sky?
I know it seems like I'm making a lot of fuss, but I actually really love your work and the new purview, and getting your personal take on it is really gratifying.
Thanks again for being the dedicated (slightly crazy) mytho/scion-o-philes that we all love!
Thanks for the Deluge catch! It should be miles. Off to fix!
DeleteAqua Vita is indeed only a single target unless you want to take multiple actions. You can use it on as many people per day as you want, just one at a time and paying for each.
While we wouldn't necessarily say you need a cartoon wall of water at the edge of the area, we would say that the "flooding" needs to end there, so STs should feel free to describe a gradual tailing-off at the edges that is wet but not damaging to anything. Since Flash Flood's effects don't leave water behind afterward but Deluge's do, the big issue will just be making sure players aren't trying to use the first to water fields or something, or expecting the second to magically disappear once the boon's effects end.
As for topography, we'd deal with that as appropriate - the flood is damaging, so if you call it up in the middle of a desert, the topsoil will be wrecked, or if you start it up in an area prone to sinkholes, several will probably open. STs should tailor to suit where the PCs do it and what's happening.
We would say that you can pop it in the middle of the ocean, actually - there's no landscape and few structures for it to mess up, but it could still ruin ships, oil rigs or generally roil up and upset marine life in the area. I imagine most players probably won't do that, but it's an option.
Popping it while you're in the sky will just get you a flood on the ground beneath you, not a floating wall of water. :) I could see a totally neat scene, though, where if a Water god happened to find themselves at a disadvantage against a sky-faring opponent (perhaps one who used Vault of Heaven on them), they could create a massive deep flood with Deluge to get a water level to just come up to them and let them start using their own element in retaliation.
I'm glad you like this stuff. :) We're always happy to talk about it.
Hey......we had some mispeaking between the deluge and flash flood. They're being worked out and should be different in a day or so.
DeleteWith Sovereign of the Seas, could use Come Along to bring others with you when teleporting to your body of water?
ReplyDeleteYep, you certainly could!
DeleteCan I have a link or a text copy of the old water boon list. I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with the new water boon tree.
ReplyDeletehttps://web.archive.org/web/20130118175628/http://www.gothambynight.com/scion/water.htm
DeleteIt has the new graphic at the top, but all the old boons are there.
Great! I was just going to say that we don't have a link to the old one but you could try the Wayback - grab it while it's hot. As I told a person above, we aren't going to be archiving old stuff we're not using on here.
DeleteI'm sorry you didn't like the new boons, but I hope you find something in there you can use, or have a good time ignoring it if now.
I like a lot of things about your system don't get me wrong, I think you guys do a great job and I will certainly follow with your new project.
DeleteAlso the wayback seems to be different as well :P but only in the sense that it's still using Dex and craft I think. The rest seems to be how it last was.
DeleteWayback only chronicles up to a few years in the past, not very recent stuff. We changed all the rolls from Craft to Survival when we released Artistry, so that copy is from July 2013 or earlier.
DeleteWe haven't done a ton with Water in there, though, until the full overhaul, so it's probably pretty close to what was up before the update. Replace Craft with Survival or Art as necessary and you should be good.
How common was baptism in ancient cultures before Christianity came along? Are you sure it was universal enough to make a boon?
ReplyDeleteThe word "baptism" in modern usage almost alwasy refers to Christianity, but being anointed in water and changed by it is a pretty universal religious concept going back a long, long time. For some cultures, like the Greeks, baptismal rites were practiced by various divine cults and represented a washing-away of sins or emotions to allow worshipers to emerge renewed. Ancient Egyptian texts talk about baptizing the newly dead in the Nile to purify them for their journey to the next world, and at least the cult of Isis practiced baptism for new priestly initiates to symbolize them "drowning", as Osiris' body parts that were thrown into the river did, and emerging anew as divine servants. Ancient Babylonian tablets talk about baptizing kings at the beginning of their reigns, to mark their passage from their old life to the life of the ruler and spiritually strengthen them. New babies born in Polynesian cultures were often baptized to ensure that they were purified of their time in the womb and ready to enter real life, and their mothers often underwent the same ritual to cleanse them and mark their passage from their old life to a new one of motherhood. When Krishna was born he was baptized in the river Ganges by his brother, and Hindu people have been ritually immersing themselves in the river's water for centuries to purify ills, show respect to the gods and strengthen their spirits in their journey toward moksha.
DeleteSo yeah, it's going on all over the world all over history, and while Christian ideas of baptism are very prevalent out here in the west, they're neither the first nor the only ones. We did hesitate a bit to name the boon "Baptism", since we knew that it might confuse some folks who are familiar with the Christian concept but not the similar ideas in other religions, but in the end it was the best word for the job.
Anne is right. It is incredibly universal in a huge number of cultures. So many cultures that scholars are very suspicious about its origins. The expectations change from one culture to the next, but they all had the theme of "DUNK AND BE SYMBOLICALLY CHANGED."
DeleteThank you. Always like learning something new here.
ReplyDeleteYou're very welcome!
DeleteI'm actually going to just sign in and have a name rather than anonymous since it makes it easier to have conversations. This is the poster who asked about the wall of water.
ReplyDeleteCan I flash flood and deep horror on the same turn with multitasking?
Also, super fun idea to flash flood on the top floor of a skyscraper.
You can flash flood and deep horror even without multitasking. But the multiple action rules say that both actions ignore each other, so if you do not have deep enough water before the flash flood then you could not deep horror.
DeleteBut you can always flash flood, between the ticks, deep horror deep horror!
Fixing the wording on both. The flood is not a natural body of water. So those dont work together.
DeleteIn short I love the boons as mechanics and I think they're neat. I've never bee big on the water boons to begin with and this hasn't changed my mind (as there are lots of other neat ideas that I'd like to do); however, they're mechanically interesting and thematically appropriate.
ReplyDeleteAs for the nitty gritty, my player will probably keep the ability to 'water bend' *shrugs* as she's pretty into it and was very disappointed to see it go away. I don't mind keeping it for my game, but the next chronicle I do (as we're in mid game right now) will do Water as you've written it up. Likewise for Aqua Vitae as she wants shrines of purification and that's fine with me. I don't like to change mechanics on my players, because they tend to faint a little bit like goats sometimes if startled ;)
As someone who also runs shorter stories, I'll probably fiddle with Baptism and Bounty of the Sea.
Otherwise very neat :). I look forward to your announcement next Saturday.
I know that Water was a pain in the arse judging by Twitter so good job with it all in all. If I was writing Scion from top to bottom, I'd probably change the way Water works and split it up into Fresh and Salt as the two have different mythic connotations, but that's very pedantic of me and not really all that good for game balance terms.
O yeah, changing stuff midstride on a character can be bad depending on the player. I think a good ST does it by ear and is careful like you seem to.
DeleteHey, if possible could you please put the "doing stuff in water"/debuff information at the top of the water purview. I think that might reinforce the strength of this purview. You know the saying...."Out of sight, out of mind". Thanks
ReplyDeleteI think I agree with you.
DeleteNo offense but i think Commander of seas is crippling against those not wanting to go full water. If you had favor of the waves you gained double your water boons to your dv so for instance if you had 18 dv and 4 water you would have 26 dv making you 13 dv in water (or 17 if it is added after the 1/2 dv) but if you take commander of the seas you become worse in the water now having only 7 dv. where is the logic in that I truly dont see having a 4 dot boon make you worse than a 1 dot boon. Granted i understand it CAN!! get better but only if you get more water.
ReplyDeletecommander of currents my appologies
DeleteEspecially when someone wants their character to be able to breath water and has epic dex and athletics maxed to then be limited now by a level 4 boon simply because one wanted to breath water.
DeleteI know which you meant, no worries! John just did a big old comment about it above, if you want to scroll up and take a look at it.
DeleteTo which post are you referring, Anne?
DeleteI read the comment which is why I posted I understand that having max dex and little water is better but the fact you mixed water breathing, the ability to swim at normal speed and walking on water from water control all into this one thing those aspects are amazing to have It is just kind of horrible that if you want to have the ability to swim in water without penalty breath water or walk on water and nothing else you are forced to take a DV hit I believe it would be better if the commander of currents benefit kicked in once your water rating in epics would exceed your halved dv
DeleteBasically, if you do up all the math on DV comparison, it looks like this, starting at Legend 5 (which is the earliest you can get the boon):
DeleteAt Legend 5, your max normal DV in water is 24. Your max DV with Commander is 27.
At Legend 6, your max normal DV in water is 30. Your max DV with Commander is 36.
At Legend 7, your max normal DV in water is 38. Your max DV with Commander is 46.
At Legend 8, your max normal DV in water is 45. Your max DV with Commander is 57.
At Legend 9, your max normal DV in water is 62. Your max DV with Commander is 82.
At Legend 10, your max normal DV in water is 71. Your max DV with Commander is still 82.
This assumes you have max Water boons for benefit from Favor of the Waves, but even if you don't, it doesn't matter; Commander DV is always better in water than regular DV, even at the very top level.
The only time it's not better is if you have maximum normal DV and only buy a little Water, but that's intentional. We want Commander to make things awesome for those who invest in water; if you're only dabbling, it's not set up to help you. You're right, you can't buy Commander just to get water breathing without taking a DV hit if you're a high-level max-DV person, but we don't know why you'd want to; you'd be spending a permanent WP just to dabble? You don't want to actually have Water?
Wait, hold the phone, transposed a digit in my table there. My fault, sorry for confusion!
DeleteThe actual comparison table looks like:
Legend 5: Normal DV 24 vs. Commander DV 23.
Legend 6: 30 vs. 31
Legend 7: 38 vs. 40
Legend 8: 45 vs. 50
Legend 9: 54 vs. 61
Legend 10: 62 vs. 73
Legend 11: 71 vs. 86
So it's still consistently always better everywhere except for Legend 5, when it's roughly equal.
Well i play the scion of posiedon who was doing some water but mostly frost and war this change in boons (since my st uses your rules) forces me to change the way I had my character setting out to be. but such is life. also I dont know how at legend 5 your max normal DV could be 24 with dex 5 epic dex 4 athletics 5 and uo is 19 (5+5+5)/2 +epics + Uo
Deleteand when in the water you have stated that those values are halved. so even if you get 24 normal dv you would be at 12 +8 (say you only got 4 water boons) is 20 in water or 16 depending on when the double water boons is added. it seems silly for someone who is dabbling to pick up your level 1 dot who wants to use it then pick up a level four boon and have it almost completely become useless
DeleteIt's normal max DV, so no extra powers like UO in there; but either way, things like UO add to DV either way, so they don't make a difference. If you have UO up, your normal Legend 5 max DV goes to 28 (+ your four dots of Epic Dex), but your Commander DV gets the same bonus and goes to 27. Same across the board.
DeleteI just posted a table correction, I put it up wrong the first time - beg your pardon!
And actually, since being in water halves your DV point-blank, UO only grants two DV since it gets cut in half, vs. being a flat +4 to the Commander DV, so it's even better with Commander again.
DeleteSame for Favor of the Waves - it's just a flat DV adder and adds to both, so it's always better with Commander since putting it on a normal DV means it gets halved as usual in the water.
DeleteBased on the wording of Commander, it is confusing as to whether you add your Water Boons (as epic) to your DV, or if your entire DV is replaced (which wouldn't make sense).
DeleteCan we see the precise DV calculation at Legend 5? I want to make sure I'm thinking about this correctly.
/sigh i suppose i think it is still silly when the whole idea of scion is to create a character who is unique and your own but now if you want to do that with water you have to max water and not dabble to do what you want and not be completely screwed. I respect your idea and will just have to make adjustments to my character accordingly. Just hurts to know i cant in fact DO IT MY WAY as you answered in my first question asked on this site. http://johnsscionresources.blogspot.com/2013/08/doing-it-your-way.html
DeleteThe entire DV is replaced - and the precise numbers are above, but sure, here's the calculations broken down.
DeleteRegular DV is (Dexterity + Athletics + Legend) / 2 + Epic Dexterity, and then halved for being in the water
So [(5 + 5 + 5) / 2 + 7] / 2 = 8 (rounded up).
With Commander of Currents, your DV is just straight up your Water rating as if an epic, so at Legend 5, it's 7.
The previous numbers I posted then added the flat bonus from Favor of the Waves, a maximum of 16 (8 boons doubled)... which I now realize was actually wrong, because all additions happen before the normal DV is halved for being in water. So the regular DV is actually ever farther behind the Commander of Currents DV than the previous numbers suggested.
So the correct numbers (last time!):
Legend 5: 15 normal vs. 23 Commander
Legend 6: 20 vs. 31
Legend 7: 26 vs. 40
Legend 8: 31 vs. 50
Legend 9: 38 vs. 61
Legend 10: 44 vs. 73
Legend 11: 51 vs. 86
Getting a bit hyperbolic now. You can create your own whatever you want. But that doesn't change what a power would do. There are many powers that you "could" buy that aren't good for your character. You get to make a choice here, you get to do it your way.
DeleteWait, how is it 23 for Commander at Legend 5? I thought the boon says you no longer get the DV benefit from Favor the Waves? Then wouldn't it be 15 normal vs. 7 Commander?
DeleteYes but before i never felt penalized for taking powers i wanted every power made you feel special this one unless you specialize in Water makes me feel penalized for not wanting to specialize in water. the new sky or thunder boons dont have the same restrictive feeling dont understand why water should is all.
DeleteGah, that's an old clause that was supposed to be moved in edits. Favor still applies to all DVs even once you've bought Commander - we initally were worried it would be overpowered to have both but later decided that it wasn't problematic considering the game's other DV-boosters. Thank you for pointing it out!
DeleteSheesh, doesn't everyone live in my head and know what I mean? Facepalm.
There are a bunch of powers that penalize you if you can't use them. Buying a power that you always botch is just as bad. You don't have to have this power. It's new, you could choose not to buy it just as easily
DeleteThat makes MUCH more sense! I was super worried, honestly. My Scion of Sobek was about to be at a DISadvantage in water and I was losing my mind.
DeleteAlso, you didn't update the front page's "Updated" link, by the way.
OH well if Favor still applies then my rant has been for nothing lol..Im sorry
DeleteI'm sorry, guys, usually my little "didn't catch it in edits" drops don't cause so much drama. Glad everything is cleared up - I will be updating Water momentarily.
DeleteThanks, Rob, I totally forgot to update the date!
My character only dabbles in water (Water 4), but it is important to her that she can breath in water and move through it quickly. I even have lightning swimmer. So we made the swap over to your new water and I picked up commander of currents to be able to do those things.
DeleteBut now I don't want to fucking go into water because it tanks my DV with commander of currents.
How so? As far as I understand it, with Commander of Currents, you lose all penalties to DV, and it gives you the option to use the DV from either Commander of Currents OR your regular DV (if you maxed out your Dex, Epic Dex, and Athletics). Favor still provides benefits. I am not seeing how you view this as tanking your DV
DeleteNo, you do not get the option to choose.
DeleteSo my character who is a "Messenger of the Gods" type character with epic dexterity 8 and water 4 goes 43 DV before modifiers to 21 DV before modifiers in the water. Maybe even lower because the wording of the boon suggests you get no attribute to the derived value.
That's correct - you don't choose. If you want to be good at water, including overcoming its inherent difficulties, you need to invest in Water.
DeleteI don't want to be good at water. I just want to survive underwater and easily move through it without gimping myself. I used to be able to do that with water breathing and water control, and now I can only do it by nerfing my DV.
DeleteThat's not true at all! It sounds like you're great at Athletics, which means you've gotten rid of most of the penalty for doing physical actions in water, and since your DV is already great, you don't need Commander's alternative DV source. There are tons of ways to do the other things that boon does for you from other sources - you can "walk on water" by simply running fast enough with Dex knacks or using things like Uller's Stride, and you can get Whale's Breath, a friend with Drown and/or decent Stamina to avoid having breathing problems. Literally the only thing you can't do without this Water boon is get total immunity to water's effects (i.e., lack of oxygen and movement impairment) all the time forever.
DeleteAnd that's on purpose. Those are things that water gods should have and that those who aren't really about water shouldn't. They were way overpowered as a single level 1 boon that anyone could pick up, and they now require investment and make being a water user matter.
I suspect a lot of the backlash about water, specifically this boon and the lack of generic "water-bending" boons, is because where other purviews like Sky were struggling and needed help, Water was in several places actually broken and needed to be nerfed. We sympathize - it's never fun to be nerfed - but we did it this way to make the game more balanced overall and to give concrete benefits to people using this purview, and Commander does both.
Basically, it sounds to me like you don't want Commander of Currents, you want Whale's Breath and to be good at what you're already good at - travel and athletics. You don't need this boon.
DeleteThe job of my character is to personally deliver messages to gods and legendary creatures, and I pride myself on doing as fast as possible. I already have sky to fly around with flight (previously wind's freedom).
DeleteWhale's breath is nice, but how do you propose I get around the half speed reduction and half dv reduction while in water with only water 4?
You've got an eighth-level Epic so you're at least a god - if you're shooting to be a messenger, have you picked up any Psychopomp? That's the purview of choice for getting anywhere you have to go exactly when you want to, and Rainbow Bridge (instant teleport to your desired location as long as you can get a high enough roll) solves all your travel problems in the blink of an eye.
DeleteIf you're going messenger without Psychopomp, that is definitely way harder, but not impossible. If your character prides himself on being awesome and fast at going everywhere, he might want to consider finding, making or getting someone else to find or make a relic to help him with that; or just buying Commander and dealing with the DV penalty when he's on a speed run, and plan ahead to either be super stealthy and minimize his risk of being attacked, or stack DV for those times in a ton of ways (there's an old post full of DV options here, although of course the old Water boons there are no longer in play).
If you're feeling like you built your character a certain way and those points wouldn't make sense now, we totally feel you - shifting mid-game, especially when you're a god, is difficult. We'd suggest talking to your ST about whether or not they might be willing to work with you on respending some points or otherwise figuring out how to transition.
Looks pretty interesting to me.
ReplyDeleteAt a quick glance-through, though, I'm left wondering about a few things.
What boon would be used to simulate Poseidon's spring at Athens? Would it be Sovereign of the Seas? I was curious because when reading Create Water it occurred to me that it was strange Poseidon would have that and yet not be able to create drinkable water for the people of Athens.
Which boon do you feel would best represent Hercules diverting the river to wash out the Augean Stables? While I can definitely see an argument being made for that being a Strength Knack and not a Water boon, it feels a little off to me that a Water-focused demigod wouldn't be able to do that where a demigod with Strength but no Water boons could.
Would you feel that boons allowing for tricks like walking on water and the parting of the Red Sea would be inappropriate, too Biblical and therefore not appropriately mythical?
Commander of the Currents allows you to walk on water.
DeletePoseidon probably did use Sovereign to create his spring. It's probably not so much that he couldn't have created fresh water, but that he created salt water because he's a sea god and that's his thing, and was surprised/peeved when humanity didn't appreciate it properly.
DeleteHeracles definitely used Strength, not Water, to divert the river - he doesn't have much to do with water and the myth explicitly describes him digging trenches in order to divert the river's flow. Diverting a river's course seems too powerful for a Demigod, and we would consider such a large undertaking to be the province of more powerful deities.
You can already walk on water with Commander of Currents. :) Parting the Red Sea is definitely a neat mythic-type event - just because it's in the Bible doesn't necessarily disqualify it! - but I'm not sure it needs a boon on its own. Strikes me as being something one might do with the Avatar, holding an entire sea in place for days at a time.
What about holding a small lake, or a stream apart long enough to cross it?
DeleteI can't remember whether it was this or somewhere else that Moses needed Aaron and Hur to hold his arms so he could maintain what he was doing, but if it was, a boon with Stamina + Fortitude seems more suited than an Avatar, but maybe that's just me.
DeleteSince a boon speaks of The Drowned Road, did you guys ever write up a Titanrealm referring to it?
ReplyDeleteWe have the general notes we use, but haven't done a full retrofit on it suitable to put on the site with the others (Keku, Ourea etc). We consider that there is a section of the Titanrealm of Water that contains ancient items and treasures lost to the fathomless waters over the millennia of the world, and that you're tapping into it a little bit when you use Sunken Treasure or Bounty of the Sea.
DeleteDamnit, you guys, I always miss boon release weekends! Just dropping quick by to let you know we're loving the new boons. Not getting into any details since most of it was already discussed, but a few adjustments here and there for our games but we'll put them to good use, thanks a lot!
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear it!
DeleteOkay, I hope you guys see this after all this time and under this absolute deluge of comments (pun intended).
ReplyDeleteWater has always been my favourite element. I've loved it ever since I went to the seaside as a child for the first time, and the time I sat on the steps of the Dakshineshwar Temple looking at the Ganga. There is something about it that I adore and that I cannot explain, a love only matched by Stars.
On top of that, I'm on a small Odyssey of my own at the moment. I just entered my first ever job, and it requires a three month training program at a city I've never been before: Trivandrum, in the sothernmost state of India, Kerala (which, incidentally, is famous for its backwaters and beaches). I dont know the language, I've neevr tasted the food, I don't know my roommates much yet, and it took me this long to get a decent internet connection and actually read the new Water Purview.
And let me just say that you guys have made me smile again, at a time when I'm not smiling that much, the way you guys always seem to manage, no matter what you do. :)
I love how every Boon speaks of the mythic age of seafarers and jealous deities ruling the depths. I see that few things are now to be as feared as a Water God in the Water, and I love that, and I love how the Water Purview has Boons for so many diverse purposes, for truly water has so many mythic meanings. I love how so many Boons are not entirely under the caster's control, for truly Water has no master and can never truly be bound, not even by the Gods themselves.
I cannot properly express how much I love this rewrite, so I'm going to borrow some words form people far better at this than I am:
"Send forth our sacrifice with holy worship send forth the hymn and prayer for gain of riches.
For need of sacrifice disclose the udder. Give gracious hearing to our call, O Waters.
For, wealthy Waters, ye control all treasures: ye bring auspicious intellect and Amrta.
Ye are the Queens of independent riches Sarasvati give full life to the singer!
When I behold the Waters coming hither, carrying with them milk and mcath and butter,
Bearing the well-pressed Soma juice to Indra, they harmonize in spirit with Adhvaryus.
Rich, they are come with wealth for living beings, O friends, Adhvaryus, seat them in their places.
Seat them on holy grass, ye Soma-bringers in harmony with the Offspring of the Waters.
Now to this grass are come the longing Waters: the Pious Ones are seated at our worship.
Adbvaryus, press the Soma juice for Indra so will the service of the Gods be easy."
- Rig Veda, Mandala 10, Hymn 30.
Sarasvati give youy long life indeed (how else am I supposed to get the Stars rewrite ;p), and truly, the Waters have come...come into their own. Anahita and Sarasvati, Poseidon and Enki...they all just became more magnificent :)
That was wonderful and you made us both tear up. :) We're so glad you like it, and thank you so much for telling us so.
DeleteAs for gripes and the like, I just really wish that there was a way to upgrade Sea Sense the way Vault of Heaven upgrades Heavenly Domain. I would have loved a Boon that specifically grinds sea-going vessels to a halt for daring to encroach upon a Water God's domain. (Could I perhaps use Riptide to achieve something similar, forcing the undercurrnets in the sea to forcibly stop them?) Other than that, no complaints, and I'm pretty happy that Liquid Form got the boot :)
ReplyDeleteP.S. Totally won that bet with myself regarding Changing States.
Ha, we've known Changing States was going to go for so very long. That silly boon.
DeleteRiptide in skilled hands could definitely just grab a ship and tell it to go nowhere.