Question: Hi, there was a story of Thor losing his hammer and having to ask Loki for help. Is this possible? Because a.) Thor is still a powerful God in his own right and B. There are other Gods.
Um... well, yes? Not only is it possible, it's totally what happened in actual Norse mythology, so you can't get a much better authority on it than that.
In a nutshell, the story goes that Thrym, a powerful and sneaky giant, stole Thor's hammer Mjolnir while he was sleeping. Upon waking, Thor went to Loki for help; Loki took him to Freya's hall, where they borrowed her cloak of feathers and Loki used it to fly off to Jotunheim to look for the hammer. When he finds Thrym, Loki learns that the giant has hidden it and will only give it back if he's given Freya for a wife. Loki and Thor try to pressure Freya into marrying him to get the hammer back, but she's having none of their shit and kicks them out of her house.
At this point, all of the Aesir have a pantheon-wide meeting to discuss the problem and figure out what to do about it; nobody's willing to try to force Freya to give herself up to a giant, but they're all concerned that the giants might use Mjolnir to invade Asgard if they don't get it back. Heimdall jokingly suggests that they could just dress Thor up as Freya and send him to Jotunheim, but Loki is immediately like, "Bro, I can totally do that," convinces Thor to go along with it, and the two of them get their drag on and go to Thrym's castle. Hilarious hijinks ensue as Thor does a terrible job of impersonating Freya and Loki uses all his manipulation chops to convince Thrym that he's the real deal, and in the end when the wedding is about to take place and Mjolnir is brought out to sanctify it, Thor seizes the hammer, goes on a giant-killing rampage, and everyone gets to return home happy. (Except Thrym, obviously.)
So, yes, Thor definitely asked Loki for help. In fact, he also asked Freya for help, and then everybody else for help when solutions were not forthcoming from his first line of advisors. Your question seems to imply, when you say "there are other gods", that Thor would not want to go to Loki for some reason, but that's just not the case; Loki is the go-to guy for solving problems, especially shenanigans-style problems, and is also usually Odin's first choice when the Aesir have an issue. There are loads of stories of Loki and Thor hanging out and going on adventures together as bosom companions, and plenty of Loki helping the Aesir out with their problems (although, of course, sometimes Loki himself causes the problems. Such is the life of a trickster god). Loki and Thor are good buddies, and even if they weren't, he's great at this stuff and a no-brainer for advice when the problem is "help, somebody just pulled some trickster bullshit on me". Loki is the authority on trickster bullshit.
Thor is indeed a powerful god in his own right, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't need help from his fellow gods sometimes, or that it's unbelievable that he might go to them instead of striking out on a solo mission. Thor is massively mighty in combat, but without Loki's help he would never have had any idea where the hammer even was, much less who to go after to get it back, and Jotunheim is not a good place for a god to march off to alone even if he is a badass. He needed Loki to figure out what had happened, figure out where to go to deal with it, and then he absolutely needed Loki's expertise at disguise, persuasion and outright lying to get him into Thrym's hall so he would have a shot at getting the giant to reveal the hammer to him. Without Loki (and a little help from Freya), none of that would have been possible for him.
One of the running themes of Norse mythology is that it takes a trickster to handle a trickster, which is why Loki is both one of his pantheon's biggest irritants and also their chief problem-solver and wrangler of foreign tricksters who are trying to ruin the Aesir's day. It's not until he masterminds the killing of Baldur and is punished for it (eventually leading to Ragnarok) that Loki ever does anything to make himself an enemy to the Aesir; on the contrary, he's one of their closest allies, especially to Odin and Thor, who are his blood-brother and best friend, respectively. It would honestly be pretty weird if Thor woke up one day with a trickster problem and didn't ask Loki. Like... does he just not want to call his buddy who is specifically good at this exact thing to solve his problems, or what?
In Scion's landscape, where everybody is on the Ragnarok Progress Meter is of course up to an individual game and Storyteller, but for most, Baldur is perfectly alive and kicking, which means Loki hasn't ever actually done anything particularly bad to his fellow gods aside from a prank or two. He might be a pain in the ass sometimes, but so are Tezcatlipoca and Hermes, and just like their pantheons put up with them because they do an important job and are super useful when shenanigans arise, so do the Aesir mostly just sigh at Loki and hope he doesn't do anything that personally inconveniences them. It is definitely possible that there might be a shadow hanging over him - at least Odin knows that he's foretold to attack the pantheon at Ragnarok, which I'm sure is causing people some concern - but overall, there's no real reason the Aesir would shun him, and plenty of reasons they could use his expertise.
I'm not sure if you might have been having some Marvel's Thor-related confusion, or were just thinking that the evil deeds of Ragnarok had already happened rather than being foretold, or maybe something else that made Loki seem like a bad choice to you. But trust us, the story of Thor and Loki going on a sweet cross-dressing crusade to Jotunheim happened long before any Ragnarok-related unpleasantness, and the two gods are pretty much best pals until all that bad stuff begins to go down.
Much as I love the comics, I blame Marvel for the "Loki is a total Badguy." Attitude.
ReplyDeleteAnd even the things he does that start the Ragnarok clock aren't done because he's evil, but because that's his Fate.
I've always run it that nobody knows why he wants Baldur dead, or why he went on his insult rampage...and that's why the Aesir go on as if they don't know Loki will betray them all. What if by insinuating he's a traitor, and thus breaking their loyalty to him, is what makes him want perfectly justified revenge? So they can't really punish him for something he hasn't done, they just have to trust he's still their Loki.
DeleteAlso, reading this makes me think what a pain it must be to be Loki. He and Odin are the only ones with more than one brain cell between them (I guess Tyr too) and Odin just fucks with him all the time because Odin.
Well, nobody does know why he'd want Baldur dead, so that's just facts. :) But yeah, the idea that the Aesir are mistreating him now because of something he hasn't even done leading him to actually do it because he's pissed off is definitely a good one - a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy, just like the imprisonment of Loki's children being the very thing that probably makes them decide to kill everyone later.
DeleteHere's a thought...what if Loki also knows of the coming doom of Ragnarok, and did what he did to SAVE Balder from certain doom, thereby ensuring he would survive Ragnarok and get to start again fresh with his dead love' Nanna. Doesn't that put a different spin on it?
DeleteI think it's just hard for some people (myself included) to wrap their heads around the fact that anyone would be buddies with Loki knowing he's destined to be involved in the murder of everyone's most beloved god and subsequently unleash the biggest shitstorm they'll ever see.
ReplyDeleteBut it wouldn't be the first time gods act in a way that leaves everyone with a big 'wtf' face. The Aesir's Loyalty probably makes it really hard for them to hate him for something he hasn't even done yet... though that still leaves the question of why they locked his children away and not him... you could say it's because they didn't have enough Charisma/Manipulation to make a case for themselves, I guess?
The fact that Loki's Odin's blood-brother, and therefore untouchable without basically committing sins against the family, probably also has something to do with it. The kids are monsters and Odin can also say he didn't really hurt them, just put them somewhere else for everyone's own good, but Loki's a friend that Odin and several more of the pantheon owe, in many cases their lives. They have Loyalty, and even if they didn't, it's hard to say, "Well, yeah, you saved my life and got us out of a whole bunch of scrapes at cost to yourself, but I heard you're going to be a dick later so I'm taking action against you now."
DeleteWe enjoyed playing a lot, in our games, with what Loki thinks about all this, and how he's reacting to being "destined" to kill someone he cares about, alienate his entire adoptive family and end up totally boned because of it. If he also knows the prophecies, what would possess him to do those things, especially since he knows hw it'll end up? Our answer is usually "Fate is really tricky, and trying to avoid it never works for anyone", so that Loki may or may not be intentionally colluding in his own fate, or just an unfortunate who isn't able to escape it even though he wants to. Like everyone else at Ragnarok, really.
We are kind of fans also of the theory that even though Odin knows those prophecies (and Frigg, since she knows all prophecies), everyone else might not. That gets into that weird thing of why-do-humans-know-but-gods-don't, but if he didn't tell anyone else what he learned from the voelva, he'd be the only one aware of Loki's impending betrayal anyway.
Odin does have Ultimate Manipulation and Avatar level Fate bending with The Wyrd. It is entirely conceivable that he used them in conjunction to ensure that no Aesir ever finds out.
DeleteHmm. Makes for a very interesting, sympathetic version of Loki - one who, despite inevitably causing it, seeks to prevent Ragnarok just as fervently as Odin. Not for his own sake, but for his family.
DeleteLoki always strikes me as being the Aesir with paradoxically the most Loyalty.
I'd agree with saying he has possibly the most Loyalty among the Aesir, too. Certainly he helps them at cost to himself a lot when he really doesn't have to. (But then, the mystery of Baldur! Por que, Loki?!)
Delete"I think it's just hard for some people (myself included) to wrap their heads around the fact that anyone would be buddies with Loki knowing he's fated to be"
DeleteSee, that's the problem: people keep assuming the Aesir *chose* to befriend Loki, or that they already knew this prophecy at the time.
Loki is the All-Father's blood-brother, he's the guy who's family not just by random genetics, but because Odin deliberately *chose* to have him as a relative. He's the uncle to most of the other gods, the cool older uncle they grew up with, who was fun and played with them when dad was busy running Asgard. He's the guy they went on camping trips with, who shows up at family barbeques and tells jokes, who taught them how to party, and every time you did something stupid that landed you in trouble and you didn't want to tell dad, uncle Loki is the clever guy who kows how to get you out of it.
Then, suddenly, this shady undead witch says "oh yeah, your best friend, the fun uncle you grew up with, is totally gonna betray you in the end. And you can't fight predestination, hah!" Is that something that should make them suddenly turn on their iehard ally, who's been with them through thick and thin, and saved their bacon repeatedly? Because some stupid prophecy said he'll eventually turn bad? What sort of friends do you think they are? Is that all it takes for people to turn on their own family in these days?
The Aesir say "BAH! HUMBUG! Ain't no witch-bitch lich gonna trick us into suddenly casting out our own, just 'cause some random corpse said she knew what would happen. That's an obvious villain-trick, trying to pull that old"divide and conquer" schtick....on US! Loyalty Virtue pantheon, hellooo, didn't she notice? Pfffft, like we're stupid enough to fall for THAT!"
...which might also help explain part of why the gods take it so *extremely* badly when/if he actually *does* betray them. "I told you so" is pretty bitter, when best friend betrays you after all, and you were even warned about it beforehand.
This brings me to an important question (for me, at least): While Loki is nigh-untouchable, plus the fact it's impossible to condemn someone for a crime they haven't even committed yet, what kind of position does this put his Scions in, politically? Given the fate of his other children, I mean... (One of my players is a Scion of Loki, and has already had a Loyalty Extremity over having to kill his nephew, a Fenrir. This does not bode well, methinks?)
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm sure being a child of Loki is scary. If you don't have any particular monsteryness about you you might be okay, but then again, all it takes is for Frigg to get one twinge of prophecy, and bam, you might end up in magical jail. (Or worse; Loki's non-monster children end up being murdered just to punish him when Ragnarok starts heating up.)
DeleteOn the other hand, the Aesir will have Loyalty toward them, even if they're treating them with caution and skepticism, so if they keep their noses clean, they might be okay. It really all depends on their choices, as well as how they react to whatever choices their father makes over the course of the game. (And really, if an ST isn't running a Ragnarok chronicle, there might be a lot less heat from that quarter.)
But yeah, dealing with Fenrir, Jormungandr, Hel or any of their spawn is definitely rough in the Loyalty department. Our sympathies.
So Scion - Hero presents "Fenrir pups" as possible Titanspawn, and Fenris and Jormungandr are generally considered Titans. What, if you've even considered this, are they Titans of? Animal, along with Tiamat and Typhon and all the other great beasts of legend, or perhaps Water/Earth for Jormungandr?
DeleteIIRC, the books outright refer to Jormungandr at least as a Titan, although they don't assign him a realm. Honestly, we're pretty sure they are problematic for Scion's Titan system which is why they were never placed, but we think they might be good fits in Emamu, the realm of beasts and monsters.
DeleteMarvel's Thor is awesome, but they do make him out to be the be all end all of gods, when in the myths he's actually pretty stupid and has a lot of anger issues. He's constantly getting punked and needs warnings about being punked. He's good at splitting heads and being there when needed, but that's about it. He actually kind of reminds me of Itzli.
ReplyDeleteMinor Ragnarok spoiler: he totally should remind you of Eztli, because they are so similar people get them confused at that point. ;)
DeleteIs that why she's got Thunder out the wazoo? Thorlike fatebonds?
DeleteShe actually stared getting those because she did a lot of flying, and old Sky had both, so her fatebonds bought her a bunch of Thunder powers as well. But then she used them, a lot, so by the time of Ragnarok it was pretty well established that she was a boom boom storm goddess.
DeleteWhich is why when we finally put through the split, she ended up all Thunder even though she had originally gained some of it because of old Demigod bonds to Sky. Fate's a funny thing. :)
Thunder! Thunder! Thunder! Thunderbats! Hoooooooo!
DeleteSo wait, I guess this should be a no-brainer, but if Eztli grows her bat-wings, can she just fly normally or does she need Flight?
DeleteAlso, Flight allows you to fly permanently for the cost of a permanent Willpower or MoT but what if fatebonds take away that boon? Do you lose the ability to fly until you buy it again? (And spend the permanent wp or MoT again, presumably.)
Griff, we have totally made many Thunderbats jokes at the table!
DeleteJacob, yes, Eztli can fly with bat-wings and doesn't need Flight, although if someone were to, say, tear one off in he midst of battle, she'd be unable to lift off anymore where someone with Flight would still be going.
You can absolutely lose the power to fly if your Fatebonds buy Flight off you, and unfortunately whatever you spent to power it is simply gone. Choose wisely when deciding what powers to invest in and which to let Fate buy off!
Thank you, Anne! You've answered all my questions related and unrelated on this post in awesome ways and I really appreciate it. :)
DeleteSorry for going all the way back to this old post to ask another question but hoping you will have an answer:
DeleteYou said that Eztli's wings allow her to fly without the Flight boon - what about Relics that also do that in mythology, like the Talaria? Would Talaria allow you to fly until someone ripped them off you/stole them?
Sure. Wings are for flying, so they work for that unless there's a reason they shouldn't (i.e., there's no air here or something). Flight allows people who have no wings and no other options to fly, and gives them the added bonus that nobody can take it away from them or prevent them from using it when they want to.
DeleteDisagree with anne here. With new flight costing Perm will. I think its a difficult balancing act to give others flying that should always be looked at very carefully.
DeleteI see John's point, and it's the main reason why I asked. I have a player who has a relic tattoo that can transform his arms into wings, and he's been begging me to let him fly,, but since I don't want to step on Flight's toes I just let him glide like a hang-glider (and he's okay with that for the most part.) But my main reason for not letting him fly isn't because it steps on the Boon's toes, but because there's really no balance - he has a relic -tattoo- so the only way he could lose it is if he had his skin ripped off.
DeleteOn the other side, if someone had, say, Talaria, which can easily be removed, taken off, or forgotten, it would definitely be still worth getting the Flight boon eventually and would still balance. But I wanted to know what you guys thought, first.
I take it the answer is 'ST call; always use caution'?
Handy Norse Crisis Flowchart for the question asker: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--2KM9Pi062M/Tk2_PpOUf1I/AAAAAAAAAFY/fFsHdI8ptLE/s1600/NORSE+CRISIS+FLOW+CHART.jpg
ReplyDeleteSo good the Better Myths.
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