Question: I have a slight problem with the Aztecs. A little thing called "playing alongside a blood-crazed mass murderer". It's hard to play the goody two-shoes hero when my bandmate thrives upon the blood of virgins and the tears of children. I know that you can make an Aztec that's a pretty good guy, I just haven't seen it been proven. Aztecs are all crazy.
Hummm. Well, there's a lot going on here.
First of all, back your train up: Aztecs are not all crazy. You just got through saying you know that there can be Aztecs who are good people, so you clearly know this. Like everyone else on the planet, the Aztecs are a race of human beings, and they have all the good, bad and ugly in them that every other race has. It's no more fair to call them all crazy than to call all Chinese people crazy, or all French people, or all of any other race or nationality or ethnic group. Chill out with the name-calling of an entire civilization.
I know we've talked about the Aztec religion and the importance of blood sacrifice in it before, but our blog is a deep quagmire of many things, so we don't blame you for not digging through it all. We could write an entire book on what blood sacrifice is about and why it's centrally important to Aztec religion (in fact, other people have - if you have a chance, check out David Carrasco's City of Sacrifice for a very thorough look at the subject), and furthermore why this is not a moral question as much as a religious one, but the basics are these: the Aztecs believed, as the central conviction of their religion, that the gods lent all their power to making sure the world was maintained and supported so that it did not collapse. They believed that it had collapsed before, and would again if the gods didn't keep it running the way they were supposed to. And they believed that the power that the gods used - indeed, the most potent power in the universe - was chalchihuatl, "sacred water", which was contained only in the blood of living things. Blood was conceived of as literally being life and power, and therefore the sacrifice of blood to the gods was directly sending them the power needed to run the universe. Human sacrifice - which certainly could and did sometimes take the form of the murder of human beings, but was more often a semi-frequent ritual of letting a little of one's own blood, a practice called autosacrifice - was intended to lend the power of the blood spilled to the gods, who would then use it to keep the universe running. In effect, the religion was designed as a massive community works project, in which everyone did their part and shed their blood to ensure that the entire world continued on.
Of course, that doesn't mean people didn't abuse the system. There are sadists, opportunists and heartless bastards in every culture, and there were definitely priests who took advantage of the sacrifice system to extort goods and services from people, nobles who abused it to get rid of people they didn't like and people from every walk of life who tried to weasel out of it by getting someone else to go under the knife instead of themselves. But this isn't specific to the Aztecs; every other pantheon's religion has examples of behavior just as bad. And considering that the vast majority of them also practiced human sacrifice at some point in their history, they don't all have a lot of moral high ground to stand on for this one.
But, at any rate, the point here is that Aztec religion is not about murdering people for fun, or drinking the tears of babies, or bathing in blood just because they like blood. It is about doing what needs to be done, even when it's painful, for the good of the entire community and the entire world. The Teotl don't kill people because they're sociopaths; they kill people because they know if they don't, everyone's going to die anyway. In fact, murder for murder's sake is just plain wasteful, as far as they're concerned, and was illegal among the Aztecs.
It sounds to me like you're having a problem with a specific Aztec - your bandmate the blood-crazed mass-murderer. We don't know anything about him or her, but let's assume that they really are a crazed murderer who skins children for giggles. You know what? It is totally 100% okay for your character to hate, fear or despise them. That shit isn't okay. Your character doesn't necessarily know why they're doing those things, nor do they know if they have any reason beyond "I haven't seen blood in the last ten minutes". Your character is presumably a fairly normal person with a fairly normal moral compass (or so I assume from you saying you're playing "a pretty good guy"), so murder should bother him, and ritualized or fetishized murder probably even more so.
It is totally possible that your bandmate is a crazy person who should be put down for the good of everyone who encounters them. Like we said, we don't know who they are or what their motivations are, or even what exactly they do, so it could be anywhere along the spectrum from "I have to perform sacrifices or my parents are going to die and lose the Titan war" to "I just like torturing people with needles", or anywhere in between. It is totally possible to create and play characters who are evil serial killers - we've certainly had one or two - so that may be what you're dealing with here. If so, you're responding pretty much the way anyone could be expected to. I don't know what reasons you have for putting up with this person in character, but even if you have to be around them, nobody can make you approve of what they do or stop trying to prevent them from hurting the innocent.
However, it's also possible that you're approaching this from a position of ignorance when it comes to what Aztec sacrifice is about, and that you might want to take a closer look at this character and their behavior. Has your character ever asked them about what they do, what it means to them, or why they do it? Do you have enough Occult or Academics for your character to know what Aztec sacrifice is about and to be able to tell if that's what's going on here? Has your character ever encountered any other Aztecs, possibly NPCs, and did they seem to behave the same way? Have you spoken to your divine parent or other people in your pantheon and asked them why they would put you with this crazy-ass murderer, to see if they know something you don't? If you feel like you're stuck with this person, have you taken any steps to try to learn more about their motivations, and to see if there's any way you can try to lessen their violent tendencies or convince them to try something different?
And hey, maybe you have and it came up fruitless, and that's cool. Maybe you're just running in a band with someone who really does keep peoples' faces in a box under their bed, and there's just nothing you can do about it. But your question sounds a lot like you're blaming Aztec society and religion in general for the behavior of one individual, so it might be worth your time to investigate whether or not they're actually acting on behalf of their pantheon or just happen to be a crazy person. No society can be made up entirely of serial killers; it couldn't function. You may just be with a person who happens to be a psychopath, rather than a typical Aztec Scion.
As for our games, we have a wide variety of Aztec Scions, each with their own way of handling (and often struggling with) the problems and morality of their religion's need for human sacrifice. Sangria, the oldest of them, is in fact a psychopathic murderer who has no compassion or concern for the lives she takes whatsoever, but she's also only interested in killing people for sacrificial purposes, never for fun or because she doesn't like them; and the others run as much of a moral and emotional range as any other pantheon's Scions might, including Kettila, who kills only children because she was an abused child herself and wants to save them from anyone being able to hurt them anymore, Carlos, who kills only animals because he isn't willing to hurt other human beings, or Jay, who performs only autosacrifice and actively crusades to save people from harm and try to convince his pantheon to change their views on human sacrifice and outlaw the practice.
The bottom line is that Aztec Scions are no more automatically crazy or evil than any other pantheon's children. Their parents simply come from a different culture and religion, one that can seem very alien to European-oriented minds, and it is often difficult for Scions of other pantheons (and even the Aztec Scions themselves, who are often perfectly normal modern people) to understand and reconcile their radically different views on how the universe works and what their place in its support system needs to be.
Not that painting an entire culture black is ever a good thing, but I have to note that part of the blame for questions like this must go to the current iteration of Iztli. It enforces the whole B-Movie villain stereotype like nobody's business.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously question-asker, of course the Teotl are crazy...they're Gods. Crazy is in the job description. In fact, compared to the arrogance of the Anunna, the infighting of the Elohim, the rape-happy Theoi, the blood feud between the Deva and Yazata, the Teotl are downright reasonable.
Two good points. Because Itztli can be used to kill people for Legend does not automatically mean that all Aztec Scions are insane murderers, but the purview does allow those who are to profit from it very handily. And there's a major difference between the Teotl (and every other pantheon's gods) and their Scions, since gods have their own problems of selective morality across the board and Scions are more likely to be modern-day people with modern-day morals.
DeleteHere, Here. I use to think the same thing about the Aztec, but then I learned a little something about them. Don't forget the savage barbarity of the Asier, the arrogant aloofness of the Amatsukami, and the hellish beuracracy of the shen. The fact that their blood sacrifice and pain is a solemn religious service certainly makes them better than vikings blood eageling someones, or gods forbid everything the inquisition did.
ReplyDeleteI might be wrong, but you make it sound like it's okay that the Aztecs are crazy because everyone else is horrible as well. I'd say that's kinda wrong. I mean, every culture has their downsides, but every culture isn't defined by being horrible. Not the aztecs, not the vikings, not everyone. Also, the the norse people were mainly traders and farmers. They just have quite a bit of a reputation for being crazy raiders, because that's what got them famous.
DeleteI think the major point is that the Aztecs aren't crazy - no more so than any other culture. They kill people in their religion, which is definitely not morally okay by modern standards, but so did large numbers of other pantheons, and many other cultures were just as violent without using their religion as a basis for it.
DeleteAnother important point is that most cultures... have human sacrifice. There are a pretty large amount of bronze age gods who are going to expect you to observe religious rituals involving human sacrifice, with none of that "Saving the world" morality attached to it.
DeleteThe Aesir did it, the Celtics did it, the Amatsukami did it, the Pesedjet did it, even the Dodekatheon did it until Prometheus convinced them to accept scraps. And those guys probably wouldn't mind going back to the old way!
This question makes no sense whatsoever. Really, I don't get what's so wrong about drinking the tears of babies (or eating them for that matter) Baby tears makes for a sweet beverage with a nice after-taste after all! Seriously, does this guy need to be more culturally open-minded or what. : )
ReplyDeleteI can understand it, honestly - the Scion books do paint the Aztlanti as fairly bloodthirsty and reprehensible and don't give them very much context, and the pop culture books and movies about Aztec mythology out there almost invariably treat the pre-invasion Mexicans as an entire civilization of insane murderers and blood-drinkers. Which is ridiculous, but that's the after-effects of colonialism still at work in the world today.
DeleteSo I'm never surprised when someone has a particularly skewed vision of the culture, just sad that our education system doesn't do a better job with that.
Yeah, totally agree with you there Anne, but....you do also agree that baby tears are refreshing and delicious, right? That was like the main point of my comment.
DeleteActually I know that think about it, baby tears could really help your arm problems! Hope you have a nursery nearby and an extremely lax police force in your neighbourhood.
Jonathan Swift is in the house!
DeleteAh, the age old role playing problem of Lawful Good character and Chaotic Evil character butting heads. It brings back memories of Player Killing, morality debates and OOC screaming and yelling. Good time, good times.
ReplyDeleteYeah, sometimes the battle lines are as easy to draw as paladin vs. thief, and nobody's ever going to like anybody else.
DeleteI really hope there is a specific example here and not just general "ew, human sacrifice"
ReplyDeleteYeah, the question doesn't really tell us, and I can't tell from the phrasing if the Aztec Scion in question really is batshit, or if the question-asker is just having a serious backlash against blood sacrifice in general.
DeleteThis might be about Tupac, a scion i made after having read waay too much sangria fiction (hah! as if there is such a thing!).
DeleteHe is sociopathic, but less so than Sangria. Though we have not played with him that much, so it might be one of the other scions entirely.
He is more of an auto-sacrifice kinda guy tho, not wanting more life to be wasted than is needed, but having no moral quarrels with slaughtering any amount of people needed. Having taken the ''inheirent feeling of what blood is worth'' from sangria pretty much directly (hey, imitation is the purest form of flattery as they say ;) ) and then building a character with that as one of his core concepts.
The biggest irony here is that Tupac is an Inca name.
DeleteOhh well, can't say i'm an expert on Aztec names, so i looked it up at babynames :P I'm actually pretty easely going to take your word over theirs.
DeleteHowever *random defence of name incomming* in modern day, i'm pretty sure most names are alot more widespread, so it happens that someone names their son something not culturally correct.
I think it could be more palatable if the Scion in question made it clear that he needed to do this and did so in a solemn fashion, without joy or pleasure. I'm sure the most "moral" of the old priests of the Aztec felt the same way. You can't gut a human being, rip out their heart, flay them alive, whatever, and not feel something unless you are a monster, and I don't believe they are monsters, no more so than any others. Also, didn't a number of sacrifices lay themselves down on the alter willingly? Also Mahtias, thank you for agreeing with my view on the Vikings. But they also did tend to cut people open and rip their rib cages out through their lungs. But when you remember what the conquistadors did to all of central and South America, everyone's pretty much the same level of horrible when it comes to screwing with each other. Finally, you say Jay sacrifices Animals, but what happened in Geooffs story when he and Sangria slaughtered an entire cruise ship?
ReplyDeleteIndeed, some people did volunteer for human sacrifice. After all, it was the greatest possible service they could do to the gods, and by extension to the entire world.
DeleteIt might seem more easy to handle for other Scions if their Aztec companions were constantly telling them that they had to do this but didn't like it, but remember that that's not a requirement. They don't necessarily owe everyone else an explanation, nor are they all required to feel the same way about sacrifice or express their feelings in an outward fashion. Someone could be disturbed by their duty and not show it to others, and that would not make them a worse person. (A lot of this really just depends on roleplaying; you'll know more about a character you develop a relationship with than one you treat as a foreigner that you're required to share band space with.)
It's Carlos that was into animal sacrifice, not Jay. Jay is the one who primarily practices autosacrifice now. And you are indeed correct - he has in the past performed human sacrifice, even on a large scale, but like all other Scions he's a person with evolving thoughts, morals and decision-making, meaning that he can and does change over time. He has since decided that he's not as okay with that as he once was, and has changed a lot of his modus operandi.
What if your character is a genuine "Nobody Dies" kind of hero? And you're not willing to let a few slip through the cracks for the good of the world no matter how much your Aztec friend tries to explain it to you?
ReplyDeleteHow do you resolve this kind of moral dilemma short of a god showing up and blowing away your heroic ideals with socials?
You're probably going to struggle, hard, with the fact that there's someone in your band that believes just as hard that death is necessary. One of you believes that all life is precious and should be preserved at all costs; the other believes that life is precious, but that that very preciousness means it sometimes has to be given up for the greater good. You're having a classic moral conflict of the needs of the many vs. the needs of the few, with a further complication that you may not both believe the other's protestations that their way of doing it is necessary or correct.
DeleteMost likely, you're going to come into conflict over it. Sometimes one of you is going to have to roll their Virtue or ignore their Nature and let the other have their way; sometimes neither of you will be able to back down, and that will result in fights. The Aztec may begin doing more of his sacrifice away from you, in the hopes that you won't know about it or try to stop it; you may start trying to preemptively warn or arm people against that kind of possibility.
As you said, it's a moral dilemma, but that's the thing about dilemmas: they don't resolve. If they did, they wouldn't be a problem. It's totally possible that one or both of you will, over time and with greater understanding of one anothers' positions, begin to change your minds or learn to compromise; but it's also possible that you won't, and that means that, no matter how much or little you might like or respect each other in the rest of your lives, you will always clash on this subject.
the example sounds like a gallant with valor extremity against a traditionalist with duty extremity.
ReplyDeleteYeah, those would be good illustrations of that situation.
DeleteThe nightmare for me is a Teotle scion who gets one of their virtues switched out for expression. On that note, can you maybe switch one of the virtues to expression for a custom game? After all, wasn't a big part of the sacrifices (auto or massive) the show that was put on, with smoke, beating drums, and massive crowds watching as people were pulled apart?
ReplyDeleteOccasionally, but not always. There were certainly some big public showboat ceremonies - Xipe Totec's are usually a lot like that, and of course Panquetzaliztli would always be a crazy event - but often a sacrifice might be more of a ceremony than a show, attended only by priests and other people involved in it, or even private (as would be the case for a lot of autosacrifice). Hollywood likes to run with the image of giant sacrifices surrounded by bloodthirsty, screaming crowds, but that's because it's dramatic, not necessarily always appropriate.
DeleteYou can always switch out a Virtue at character creation; doing so makes your PSP cost 1 more point of XP per dot.
oh the Aztecs...
ReplyDeleteI should point out that no matter how much you justify the Aztec culture and penchant for human sacrifice, there are some people who simply CANNOT accept it with modern morality. It doesn't matter whether you point out that most sacrifices were volunteers - that just makes it sound even creepier - or war criminals - that just makes it holy capital punishment and not a lot of people support that nowadays even when it's killing the worst of the worst. Some people with our modern morality cannot differentiate killing and murder, period. I'm not saying the inability to differentiate is a BAD thing because...I'm not. Why, in our modern day, is it a good thing for the average joe to know the difference between volunteered sacrifice in ancient Mexico vs. fetishized murder now outside of roleplaying games and anthropological study? It's really only good for those two things and if someone can't accept the difference, then no harm done.
but on to what I was going to say, the two times we've had Aztecs in our games, it sort of ran the gamut of good vs evil - I tried to play a 'good' Aztec (Scion of Quetzalcoatl), in that he was a third generation Mexican-American raised strongly Catholic, so while he could not get behind fetishized murder because it wasn't his 'culture', he could easily get behind the idea of autosacrifice, as the God he was familiar with was made famous by it. Itztli was his 'Passion' to some extent. He never really got far enough to have to deal with eventually accepting the sacrifices of others.
In a (relatively) recent game, somebody played a Scion of Tezcatlipoca and completely played up the 'eats babies' aspect of the Aztecs. A (mortal) soldier had been crushed by a rockfall and only the top half of his body was still visible, and he wasn't going to survive long enough for the medics to arrive. The Scion of Tezcatlipoca suggested that he perform the sacrifice on the soldier, since he was going to die anyway, and Tezcatlipoca would gain from his sacrifice. My character (Egyptian) and my girlfriend's character (Anunna) freaked out at the prospect, because we both had Order, and when he went ahead and did it anyway, she virtue extremitied and started trying to kill him to bring him to justice for his wrongful murder of a soldier.
Which brings me to my advice for a situation like this - look to the PC Social Contract John mentioned a few days ago. You should NEVER just go 'oh well we're PCs so my character will work with the mass murderer because hey we're PCs' but you should FIND A REASON you would. If there is none...virtue extremity and kill him, that'll make its own drama. If the character's going full chaotic evil, he's basically asking to be killed by someone or other eventually. But in the above example, my character also had Piety higher than he had Order, so he channeled it and insisted that they had to keep working with the Tezcatlipoca Scion because they needed his help to stop the Titans, which was his divine mission given to him by his parent. Since my girlfriend's character also had Piety, it helped. The other player was an Aesir, and while random murder was weird and uncomfortable and he didn't agree, there was no divine imperative telling him this guy was seriously screwed up in the head, so we were able to move on and fight bad guys and play the game.
I don't disagree with what you said, but I thought I would bring a counterpoint to the table about the acceptance of human sacrifice in the world of Scion.
DeleteSome people often forget that this is a game where blood sacrifice is literally creating magical resources to help the Teotl win the war. The Scion lives in this world, a world where he knows that's true--he doesn't just believe it, he knows it, feels it, sees it happen, as real as the nourishment we get from eating. If he's not shedding enough blood, he's simply not doing as much as he can to help.
Of course it will be difficult for other cultures to understand at first, I can totally see a Hero-level Scion being totally disgusted at the idea. But unless they're blind or daft, they should eventually be able to see that the Teotl aren't just raving lunatics murdering for fun (and I'm not saying a character can't be that way).
So, no one has to really "justify" Teotl sacrifice. It's a real thing in the world of Scion, and it should be seen as such within the context of the game. Maybe a character has a problem with it and they don't like it, but how many people actually stop eating because someone else thinks it's wrong?
So I wrote most of this post an hour ago and had to stop because of work and I forgot the point I was trying to make. So I'll just end with this:
Carlos and Jay Ortiz are Itztli-vegans.
So there.
Hmm, i think Jay is more like a vegetarian and Carlos went full out Vegan?
DeleteYou know, since Jay still does human blood, but only his own, whereas Carlos went ''only animal blood''
...you could also go the other way around and see it as ''Carlos still sacrifices other creatures blood, so he's the vegetarian andd Jay the Vegan''
Yes and No at the same time?
DeleteOn the one hand, power from blood is absolutely verifiable. Anyone can pop a mystery question and learn that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Aztecs are gaining real power from sacrifice.
On the other hand, you are still left with that nebulous dilemma of "did that extra power actually make a difference?" People can still make the very real argument that you could have succeeded without killing someone if only the team had been more frugal, better prepared, etc.
If you're not one of the Teotl and you don't know what they did with it exactly, sure. But the Teotl do know what they did with that power exactly, and if 10 more Legend made the difference between binding a Titan or being defeated by it, or saving a fellow deity with a desperate heal or watching them die, or escaping a trap with Psychopomp instead of being caught and taken out of the battle.
DeleteOf course it's easy for anyone who doesn't have Itztli to say, "You might not have needed that, I didn't need it and I did just fine!" But those people have other PSPs instead that helped them, and they don't have real knowledge of how the Teotl use their blood energy unless they either ask them directly or use Mystery to know beyond a shadow of a doubt.
And let me tell you, as someone who has played an Aztec, there are definitely times when that extra Legend is the difference between life and death or triumph and defeat. Almost everyone has had that moment where they realized they were out of Legend and therefore options, and if they had been Teotl, they might still have had a chance to do something at that point.
Okay, bear with me, since this is probably me getting the wrong impression from text...but I've heard a lot of Teotl Scions claiming, and non-Teotl Scions complaining, that Itztli makes it so that you never have to worry about running out of Legend again in the middle of important stuff since they can just go sacrifice a town or something. What I don't get is...Itztli is supposed to be highly ritualistic right? You can't just 'take a break' in the middle of a battle to go recharge your batteries, the battle will be over by the time you get back. Which is why I'm wondering about that last line of yours Anne...if they were Teotl, they still couldn't do anything...whatever emergency is going on is hardly likely to afford them the luxury of teleporting out and finding the closest town to slaughter.
Delete@Jacob: I don't think anyone ever needs to agree to like human sacrifice...I think the problems with the original question are twofold...firstly, that Scions are not heroes...they're soldiers at war, and sometimes war requires you doing stuff you never thought you could do, or support. And secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the Aztecs were not 'crazy'. Their basic assumptions about the nature of the universe might have been wrong...but their reaction to those assumptions are completely sane. If sacrificing a person today is literally the only way to save the whole world tomorrow, you'd be crazy not to do it.
I feel like this rambled more than was intended, so sorry about that.
Oh, I don't mean that they could sacrifice mid-battle or anything - apart from Combat Sacrifice, they definitely can't, since as you say they need to go perform a solemn religious ritual. I mean that Teotl Scions and gods generally always have fuller "batteries" - they would have done that sacrifice before this battle, and would therefore be going in with more resources than a Scion who doesn't have (or didn't use) any Itztli. It depends on how often they use it and whether their timing is good, of course, but often they're coming into any dangerous situation with more resources than others, because they were able to replenish via sacrifice in between conflicts, and their friends were not.
Delete@Rasmus As a vegan I should clarify that Jay's penchant for autosacrifice okay to go with the "vegan" analogy but I've always found the term "vegetarian" for "animals only" like in vampire fiction to be outright ridiculous and actually the complete opposite. People go vegetarian (and later vegan) because they don't want to harm anything without consent. To harm yourself in sacrifice is totally vegan as you have given consent to yourself to be harmed. Not so with the killing animals...
DeleteSorry for the Actual Vegan rant, just felt it needed to be clarified.
I'm sorry if this comes off too Devil's Advocate-y, but what about in the case of a social juggernaut Scion, who is able to make people want to give consent and be willing sacrifices? Would that still be a Vegan sacrifice, or do near unstoppable god socials (bordering AND including mind control) make it not count? Further, I guess that applies to those who can use those on Animals too...
DeleteStupid god socials, making me think of morality questions.
Plants do not give consent either, and they are scientifically proven to feel pain and release stress chemicals. But you still eat them.
DeleteAnon 1) I feel like this gets into the many, many territories of epic socials morality that's been talked about on the blog for years. Here's the thing though - I am not judging myself or my players for their actions in game. If someone wanted to use their social powers to line people up for the knife I would be proud of them. If they were the typical mass murdering teotl stereotype, I'd be cool with that too. I just take offense at the idea of killing animals as a "vegan" option when...no, no, that is the exact opposite of what that word means...
DeleteAnon 2) there are so many things wrong with that argument but I'm not actually going to bother with this because I am neither criticizing your diet nor "justifying" mine on the JSR blog. I was just pointing out the inconsistency of the analogy.
So, now that I have time and a keyboard, I can more effectively articulate some of my feelings towards Itztli and the dynamics of the group.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, what role is the Aztec playing in the Band? Is s/he a frontline fighter? A social monster? An intellectual? A healer? A tracker? Note that none of these choices are mutually exclusive. What is s/he contributing to the Band? If the answer is "not much", then you have problems beyond the discomfort you/your character has towards use of Itztli.
A point that should be made is that, whatever role the Aztec is playing, then Itztli is not only empowering the gods and ensuring the continuity of the universe, it's also helping them do their job better. Fighters can do more Agg damage, and tanks can soak more Agg damage. Healers are better equipped to save your ass when you get caught in area of effect stuff. They can resist more mind-whammies at full strength. They can make more Guardian-shields to protect you from danger or Psychopomp you further away.
And, of course, there's Legendary Surge. Sweet, sweet Legendary Surge, where the Aztec shares the bounty with you. Limited by a roll, mind, but even that's overshadowed by Communal Divinity at Legend 10.
So assuming your Bandmate hasn't switched out Loyalty (always a good trait for your Aztec to have), he should be helping you out, sociopath or no. And there's always the wisdom of "better having him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in". Got Vengeance issues? Congrats, you have sacrificial candidates. You have Justice Boons? You can tell if criminals are guilty of crimes and thus fair game. Let the murder work for YOU.
And, here's something awesome. You can go beyond autosacrifice without murdering people! Obsidian Excruciation, the boon that allows you to reap Legend from other people, doesn't require that the victim die (though the extra 1W+5L from sacrificing a heart certainly helps)! This is PERFECT for the Social butterflies, because you can charm an entire crowd of people, get them to line up, and drain a pint of blood each. BAM, you've got the Legend boost you need without working up a sweat!
Coming very soon, my own tales of Itztli use in Scion
Frequent readers of the comments know a bit about Alan Lord, my Scion of Quetzalcoatl, who I've played in several games, the longest being the Lost City of Atlanta, which I joined in late Demigod, though I used past Hero games to help detail his background.
DeleteAlan began as befits his parentage, in that he wasn't fond of killing people no matter how necessary the gods claimed it was (aided by the fact that he held the gods in little reverence). This made sense, he was an ecologist and an animal lover who didn't like the idea of killing anything, really. So, for most of Hero, he chose not to sacrifice others, which was helped by the mechanics not giving him a concrete benefit for it.
This changed by Demigod, thanks to several factors. One was the fact that one of Alan's primary Epic Attributes was Intelligence, his top Purview was Animal, and his highest Ability was Animal Ken. This meant that, as he got higher in Legend, his brainpower dwarfed humans, and thus, from his perspective, a mortal human and a tree frog were about equal in terms of brain function. Not helped by this was the fact that he'd switched out Courage for Harmony, meaning that he was seriously concerned about human impact on nature, and with Conviction fueling the blood sacrifice = important bit, he became more driven to both lessen the impact while simultaneously bolstering the cosmos, particularly if the victims were polluters or poachers. And, lastly, Demigod Itztli does give incentive to get blood from others, so what started out as "Oh, just this once won't hurt" can escalate, just as those decisions do in real life.
The funny thing is, that he'd find Carlos' method offensive. As far as he was concerned, animal sacrifice was a travesty compared to humans. Largely because, in his mind, with billions of humans roaming around, the idea of thinning the population down was very attractive to him. On the other hand, killing animals for use in Itztli was inexcusable, since there might only be several thousand living individuals of that species of bird. It did depend on the animal in question, a chicken or dog would earn disapproval, but a jaguar or an endangered macaw would be a good way to earn a spot on his own sacrificial table.
So, Alan was quite comfortable with killing people. He had the courtesy, though, to do it out of sight from those in the group who weren't that on board with it. And, of course, as the Band's healer, and having Legendary Surge to share the wealth, meant that he was able to translate that sacrifice into benefits for the group.
And, of course, this comes to the point where Alan came down with a bad case of Malice, right before turning into a God and not ending until he was well into Legend 10. It was entirely his fault, eating the heart of a Titanspawn (One of his preferred means of on-the-go ritual sacrificing of feeding hearts to jaguars) and absorbing its power. Once that happened... well, suddenly he got a whole lot less clinical and detached about his sacrifices. It actually got kind of creepy for me, once Malice came up, he was more inclined to murder in gruesome ways. Of course, that also caused a metric ton of trouble both for himself and the Band, and curing him of it was a relief to all involved.
Short version, characters evolve, and just as Jay Ortiz went from sacrificing people up to and including killing four other Scions (including his own cousin) and has ended up in Quetzalcoatl's camp, it's perfectly possible for someone to go from a character creation of eschewing the practice unless called for to becoming an eager spiller of blood.
And, above all else, remember that being a dick in game can take many forms, and at least the guy ripping out livers and eating them during formal dinners is doing so in a way that's obvious and out in the open. I've dealt with problem gamers whose issues were much subtler.
One more thing that I didn't have space for...
DeleteA method I like to use for roleplaying purposes is that Alan was able to (at first through Unlidded Eye, eventually all the time thanks to tons of Epic Per) literally see how Itztli fueled the cosmos, seeing the transfer of Legend as it helped the movement of the skies, the growth of plants, etc, etc. I highly recommend this for Aztec Scions, perhaps as a side effect of Itztli itself, to highlight its importance. And if you let Magic Scions see it (particularly those who roll high on Perception + Occult), it becomes easier to justify.
lets not forget the one Teotl that refused to sacrifice is seen as the ultimate traitor/coward and is banished to the moon titan realm for all eternity.
ReplyDeleteLet us also not forget that his refusal to sacrifice nearly cost the World the Sun, so the accusation is justified. Let us also not forget that the idiot volunteered himself. No one made him do it.
Delete