Question: Is Duty really a valid Virtue for most pantheons, particularly the Aztecs? I've done a little research into them, and it seems as if worlds 1 through 4 were destroyed more from the gods being petty and spiteful and neglecting their duties than anything else.
Well, in answer to your first question, yes, Duty is hella a valid Virtue for some pantheons to have. It represents a cultural drive to put the needs of the culture itself – its people, values, customs, and your job within it – above your own selfish needs, and to support the whole because you know that your value comes from being part of it. Not every culture espouses Duty, but when they do, they do it hardcore: it’s where things like the samurai code of honor in Japan come from, or the Polynesian insistence on incredibly complex social and aristocratic roles. And the Aztecs, who embody Duty like it’s motherfucking going out of style.
You’re right; the destruction of the first four worlds represents four different failures of Duty. But that’s important and intentional. These are cases of a myth that proves the rule by showing its exceptions: when people do not do their Duty, everything is horrible and awful, forever, it’s the worst. A culture that did not give a shit about duty would not write a story about how people failing at duty equals the literal failure of the universe. That’s something you’re only going to get with people who want you to know that duty is so important that if you break it everyone might die and you’re the worst person who ever lived.
The thing about the Teotl is that they embody Duty, constantly, their entire lives, all the time. They are gods who literally have to hold up the universe all the time, or it’ll break – they have to make sure the rain falls, the sun rises, the earth stays solid, the crops grow, and the second one of them drops a ball or gets distracted or just isn’t up to it that day, there are disastrous consequences in the world. The Aztec gods were conceived of by their people as being ceaselessly dedicated to maintaining the world, very literally performing that awe-inspiring Duty every minute of every day, and if they ever stopped or thought their Duty wasn’t important, the world would collapse and everyone would die. And that leads to the Aztec culture itself, which decided that they also had a duty to support and uphold the universe for everyone’s sake, and therefore offered regular blood sacrifices to their gods. They made it their duty to empower the gods to keep doing their duty – in essence, a massive chain of Duty all the way from mortal to god, with anyone who proved to be a weak link severely looked down upon or even punished.
The myth of the four suns illustrates this in a big way. Just like the World now, those Worlds were doing fine – until one god failed in his Duty. In the first and second, it was because someone attacked him; in the third, because he went into a jealous rage; and in the fourth, because she became hysterical and couldn’t keep it together. And each time that Duty was failed, the world literally ended. That’s how important duty is to these guys; if you don’t do it, you failed the entire universe.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that they don’t fail at their Duty once in a while – every god and Scion does, at some point. And they also have other Virtues that may sometimes conflict with Duty, and if Duty loses out, that’s a problem for everyone. But on the whole, their entire religion is built around the idea of the gods dutifully supporting and protecting the universe, humanity dutifully supporting and appreciating them, and everything continuing to exist only because they do that. They are massively Dutiful. Duty is everybody’s cosmic job.
We are fans of you asking questions about Virtue appropriateness, by the way, because there are definitely some in the game right now that we think bear consideration, or maybe don’t fit as well as another one would. But this is definitely not one of them.
which virtues do you think need consideration or don't fit?
ReplyDeleteWe've been talking a lot lately about how the Deva may need Duty, thanks to the concept of dharma being so centrally important to their religion, and we've also been talking about how the east Asian pantheons (the Kami and Shen) may need some Virtue fixes when their rewrites come up. It's not a project we're actively working on at the moment, though.
DeleteVengeance for the Tuatha.
Delete(That sounded way more than a war cry than was intended).
to Anne: you've discussed the Deva and Duty in your Deva Decisions post; it's good to here your updated view on that.
Deleteto Samudra: the talked about this in their "Something is a Virtue" post though I would like to hear their current opinion on this change... and whether or not they could slip it in with the Enech rewrite if it regains it's lead in the polls.
It's nice when we have long enough to think about something that we evolve new opinions. :) Also some folks making really good dharma-based arguments lately!
DeleteWe might slip redoing the Tuatha Virtues, if necessary, along with Enech, but it's not a firm decision yet. Will depend on the project when we get there.
Vengeance for the Tuatha would be pretty nice. While there are definitely some Tuatha who do not have vengeance, there seem to be far more gods who do. And the culture as a whole expresses vengeance far more than they express intellect. The bards probably had intellect, but very few people were bards, and who knows what the druids did.
DeleteAlso to note, all of the problems in the narrative of the Four Suns have one ultimate cause: Motherfuckin' Tezcatlipoca.
ReplyDeleteI'm certainly not pinning all the blame on him, it's just that he flips the table for the second sun, and the table-flippers for one, three, and four due so in response to his actions. If I may...
First Sun: Tezcatlipoca is the sun, but loses the position because a god of darkness serving as the sun isn't very good at his job. This is implied to be the reason why the inhabitants of this world are unintelligent giants. If not a dereliction of Duty, (though some claim that he was hogging all the sun's light like a miser), one can see why someone might think he wasn't doing it well enough. Particularly if that someone is Quetzalcoatl. Hence, the attack.
Second Sun: Entirely about revenge. Q gets smacked down by a jaguar paw just because Tez isn't letting his twin get away with anything.
Third Sun: Once again, the inciting incident is Tezzy getting into some shenanigans. Stealing Tlaloc's wife may not have been the best idea, but I'm guessing that if you look at Xochiquetzal and have all the Epic Charisma and Manipulation to seduce her, 9 times out of 10, you're going to do it (Geoff being the 1 in this case. I remember comments on the various tribulations). And if you had Xochiquetzal as a wife and lost her, 9 times out of 10, you're going to be pissed off enough to burn everything that exists into ash.
Fourth Sun: Is it any surprise who's behind this fall? And it's not like the previous sun, where the world-ending tantrum was a side effect of his selfish desires, he just straight up goes to Chalchiuhtlicue, tells her horrible lies with the sole purpose to make her cry enough to flood the world. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a Malice Extremity.
So, there we have it: All that heartache, destruction, and pain just for Tezzy's shits and giggles. It's enough that I'd possibly recommend switching out Duty for him along with your Loyalty-for-Malice. Then again, he does pony up and do his Duty when push comes to shove, like the aftermath of the flood where he sacrifices a foot to lure Cipactli. However, I think it's safe to say that he doesn't have many dots in Duty. And the pantheon occasionally has to deal with this shit because of it.
John's STing right now so he doesn't have access to posting, but he said that he also thinks it might be a valid interpretation that Tezcatlipoca, as the god of chaos and change, might actually have a Duty to flip the chessboard occasionally and prevent things being stagnant. But even if you don't like that interpretation, he definitely has major moments of more classical Duty, especially the foot thing. :)
DeleteI'm not sure I like Duty representing anything you feel like and decide to be dutiful about. I much prefer Duty representing a divine Duty that your pantheon tries to uphold and you need to tow the party line.
DeleteI think there needs to be a combination of both. Duty should apply to a specific duty that you are required to carry out; that should almost always come from a greater authority, but it needn't always be the pantheon. For example, you might have things your Duty requires you to do for the pantheon, but other things your Duty requires you to do because you're in the military, or other things your Duty requires you to do because you're a parent, and so on. There are varioius levels of duty present for most characters, and the Virtue represents the fact that the Scion takes their duties very seriously and has a need to fulfill them, no matter where those duties come from.
DeleteBut yes, things that are just "I feel strongly this should happen" as opposed to an actual duty handed down from a higher power or authority should normally fall under Conviction.