Question: How do your resistance rolls scale with Epic Stats? It seems improbable to ever resist a knack from someone with 5-6 epics because of automatic successes that the resistance roll doesn't have.
This is completely true, and it was one of the major problems that Scion's original system had - a Willpower + Integrity + Legend roll was almost never going to win against an aggressor with more than a couple of dots in an Epic Attribute. The original rules attempt to solve this problem by letting you just spend a point of Willpower to ignore any mental or social effect, but that's just as bad in a different direction (we don't want mental and social power-users, Scions included, to end up totally fangless, after all). Obviously, this was all lame and definitely didn't work past the early Hero level, but at the same time we didn't want to lose the coolness factor of getting to roll a resist; a static "resist DV" calculation removed the ability to do things like blow Legendary deeds or Virtue channels for truly epic feats of spiritual fortitude, so we didn't like that solution, either (though many games do use some variation on that idea and seem to do fine with it).
So instead, we offer several trees of knacks to allow PCs to raise their resistance to a competitive level with their own Epic Attributes: Bedazzling Image and Disorienting Countenance are found under Appearance, and work on the theory that you are so visually distracting that it's difficult to concentrate on you hard enough to break your will. Blockade of Reason and Parapet of the Mind are under Intelligence, and allow you to draw on the incredible power of your sharply honed and intricate mind to reason through and reject outside interference. And Lateral Thinking and Crazy Like a Fox are under Wits, illustrating that your mind is so slippery quick and responsive that it's difficult to keep up with it long enough to affect it. The second-level knacks add a few dice to your roll, giving you a leg up on your would-be puppetmasters, and the third-level ones allow you to gain your Epic Attribute successes instead of rolling your Legend, thus bringing you up to an even footing with users of mental powers.
Having three different Epic Attributes gives PCs of various concepts options for buffing their resists; like everything else in the game, it's something that you can choose to invest in or not as you please, depending on how important resistance is to you and your character concept. Not everybody decides to go for it, but those who do usually find cool ways to weave it into their characters - whether it's Sowiljr's mind-blowing hotness overwhelming anyone who tries to meddle with him, Vala's impregnably complex mind, too difficult to unravel in order to command, or Eztli's lightning-quick, so-fast-you-missed-it thought processes simply leaving any lesser immortals in the dust wondering why she was already moving before they even finished trying to redirect her.
I use a Mental DV (it's (Wits + Integrity + Legend)/2), but I have a Knack in Intelligence that let you use Intelligence for it instead of Wits. It seems to give a nice, solid purpose to Wits as far as the system goes.
ReplyDeleteI get your point about the coolness of blowing a Legendary Deed or a Virtue Channel on a resist attempt, but can you blow those on a Dodge or a Parry? I think I am going to add a house rule that you CAN use Deeds and Virtues on DVs, ANY DVs. They'll just add their appropriate amount to the DV itself.
Oh, and I also allow my players to burn a WP to double their base (pre-Epic) MDV instead of burning a WP to simply ignore the power totally.
I don't disagree with you on principle, but the major reason to keep normal DVs for me is that having someone roll to avoid being hit would slow down combat like whoa and hell damn, and it's already slow enough as it is. It'd be a huge clunker to add to the system, causing massive extra rolling on all sides and making combats drag on into infinity. DVs don't allow you to add to rolls in feats of dodging (though we do still award stunt dice if someone happens to describe an excellent attempt to avoid an opponent), and that sucks, but they really can't without blowing up gameplay.
DeleteResistances, on the other hand, don't happen as often and tend to be more story vehicles and less things that just determine how much damage someone is taking (though of course it depends on the power involved). We always want to encourage rolling and getting the chance to stunt, add to, and be awesome with rolls, because rolling is more fun than sitting around waiting for the ST to tell you what happens to you. It'd be nice to live in a perfect world wherein we could do that for DV, too, but there's no way to do it without making combat incredibly choresome, so we'll just have to live with the disparity.
We just totally removed the Willpower usage, point-blank, unless the power involved actually says in the text that Willpower can be used to combat it in some way. Willpower is so freaking easy to get all over Scion, from stunts to knacks to boons, that it seemed pretty clear that the rule was just a holdover from WoD anyway (where WP only comes back once in a blue moon and thus has to watched a lot more closely). I haven't played in an MDV system, though, so I couldn't really envision how it would play out there.
It actually hasn't come up very often, even in my game. The players tend to avoid using social powers on each other and only one of them has many social powers to use on NPCs. He hasn't run into any socially competent NPC's yet that weren't Gods.
DeleteThat'll change eventually and I'll have to decide if the WP effect needs to go. I'm constantly ambivalent about it.
Heh, our PCs use socials and mentals on one another almost constantly. I don't know if it's because they're terrible people or because they're best friends who can all take it. The comedic value is endless, though.
DeleteIt just only makes sense to use powers on each other. If you dont, people very quickly forget how amazingly charismatic, manipulative, etc you are. If everyone is just constantly rping correctly though, I could imagine no one ever having to use powers against each other. But it seems really hard to pull off. Also because its hard to figure out when you have several people in group with the massive stast whose force of social power wins out.
DeleteWe really only have the one social character. Two brainy ones and two smashy ones.
DeleteWe tried using social powers on eachother in Missing Pieces. One of our players (who has now left the game, thank goodness) threw a hysterical fit about us "taking away control of my character!!!"
DeleteThey're a part of the game now, though, and do make for some interesting moments.
Yeah, sadly, that's always a danger. :( It's something you really have to sit down and talk with players about to make sure you're all on the same page - while I totally understand wanting to feel like you're in charge of your character's own destiny, you can't roll around with your combat monster who could squash everyone else like a bug and then expect the mental and social people to accept that they're powerless because they can't use the powers in their own toolboxes. It helps to foster an environment in which the players know they're all on the same ultimate team, and even if they occasionally screw each other over or force someone's hand, they're not out to play the game for you.
DeleteWe do have one player who's quite a bit more touchy about having powers used on him than others (his most memorably upset moment involved a flounce after one PC Dreadful Mien'd him out of a situation he was steadily making worse), but since the other players know that, they generally try to use such powers more sparingly on him or explain what they're doing out of character so he doesn't feel picked on. He's gotten more comfortable with it over the years, I think - sometimes it's all about your comfort level with the other players.
Its definately an issue that's coming up in our game since the two people who've spent on manipulation have no real problem using it on Pcs conversely those who've spent on strength to retaliate are less willing.
ReplyDeleteYes, thats definitely and issue. PVP becomes a little more dangerous. It gets into some difficult ground where you usually have to sit down and have an out of character talk at the table and say what everyone is cool with. The usual end game is something like "well, you need to respect that im manipulative, and roleplay that i can manipulate you so I dont have to use powers to do it. And conversely, I'll always remember you can crush me like a bug, so you dont have to actually crush me like a bug." The trouble is often the people being manipulated dont like that, and often try to ooc their way around it. Its a very difficult thing to play, and its much more difficult if the player isnt good at manipulation themselves.
DeleteMy PC's just kinda keep trying to murder each other. It's an issue. Our Xanatos-wannabe left the Band because the Murderous Batman was about to behead him for starting a war in North Korea.
DeleteOur Bleeding Heart Aztec left the Band when it came to light that our Pro-Mortal, Anti-God Atheist was working with a new Avatar of Akhetaten to promote enlightenment.
And our Kami is just waiting for the order to kill her Bandmates, because she doesn't actually like any of them.
In short: my players suck at creating characters that work as a team. Drives me bloody nuts.
ooo. Yeah, older mistake of mine that Ive since remedied. The band mates have to have back stories that will get along or are complimentary. OR they have to be very devout to their parents and their parents demand they work with and help the others. I've seen way too many situations like the ones your mentioning, and it can very easily destroy TONS of hard work on everyones parts.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Having a party where everybody wants to take out everybody else is awk-sauce. Interestingly, the players in my current game are very dysfunctional and some even downright hate each other, but they all play nicely because on the occasions that they didn't people they all liked ended up dead.
DeleteWe've found that Sanctify Band is a helpful tool for pulling fractious groups together - it still won't stop them from disagreeing, but in most cases it stops them from hating one another, so that's always a step in the right direction. We also often have divine parents send down a gentle (or not-so-gentle) reminder that they want the kids to play nicely for their own ends.
DeleteThough it should be noted that mind-whammying one another isn't always bad news bears. Some of our players actually rely on it, as in, "Hey, heads up, dude, Eztli's about to wreck that guy you need for your diplomatic negotiations because of XYZ. You should probably stop her with powers." Vala's also notorious for using Illusion and Manipulation on her own bandmates, but she usually does it to try to steer them away from trouble, not toward.
My PCs also usually use their powers to help get around sticky situations and potential conflict.
DeleteI think I might go with a Wits + Integrity roll when resisting socials. That would make Wits more useful and keep socials on par with the DV without any tinkering. Their might be knacks that allow you to use your Int instead.
Perhaps I would break it down like this: Against Charisma and Appearance (Presence, Command): Wits+Integrity. Against Manipulation I could use the same or the traditionnal Perception + Empathy, wich would boost up Perception as well. Giving it only Manip makes it less usefull as a resistance stat but Perception can be a combat stat with firearms.
As for Virtues, I would allow them depending on the purpose of the the social power. Making it a roll on both sides supports this easily.
Thats the 2nd time someone has said that and Im VERY confused. When did wits become not useful? Wits is insanely useful.
DeleteFor your resist system: What about attacks that use appearance and wits?
It's not that Wits isn't useful. But it's not as useful as the others. I've never seen someone focusing on Wits first.
DeleteI might not be completly awake, but what attacks use appearance and wits? Do you mean social attacks?
Yeah.
DeleteLevin Fury and Perun's Apples come to mind as devastatingly effective attacks that require Wits to pull off. Nothing is quite as sad as a thunder-god who isn't quick-witted enough to hit anything with his bolts.
Delete...wait, I think he meant social/mental attacks, since he was talking about the resist system. Appearance is easy - stuff like Serpent's Gaze/Compelling Presence/Come Hither and all that. There's a lot of Appearance stuff to be resisted. A lot of Chaos and Illusion boons roll Wits to affect others.
We've got two super Wits monsters in our games (Eztli and Sverrir) and they love it. Not just for resistance rolls, but because they're always the first to go in combat (sometimes going so much further ahead than everyone else that they can blow a few powers and be super ready) and because they have a variety of cool knacks (including distracting enemies from hitting others and performing badass social damage control) that other attributes don't have. I should note that we also use Wits for driving/Control rolls, not Dexterity, so that's a dimension that also requires it for us.
We get about the same number focusing on Wits to begin with as we do Perception and Manipulation - those three tend to be less popular than the others for some reason.
My instinctual response to Manipulation being less popular is that it actually requires the PLAYER to be a fairly decent manipulator to get the most mileage out of that trait. It's harder to just smokescreen it whereas Charisma is fairly easy to just "I am SO DAMN FRIENDLY! BE MY FRIEND!" and such.
DeleteWits has a few nifty powers associated with it, but overall just as something you roll it doesn't come up as much. Join Battle is essentially it, as far as the base system goes. I think it often gets confused with Intelligence and people roll Intelligence instead of Wits, even when the task they're attempting probably should BE wits.
That's true, Manipulation requires, well, manipulation. Our high Manip players tend to do a lot of outside-of-game discussion with the ST and passing of notecards with secret messages during game sessions, because it's impossible to be sneaky around your own bandmates when you're declaring what you're doing all the time. (And hard to Manipulate on your feet if your real-life Wits score isn't great!)
DeleteAs I said, we do make all driving rolls Wits instead of Dexterity, so that's another essential area for us, and it comes up a lot when PCs are trying to jump in front of one another to take a hit (we usually require them to beat the attacker on a Wits + Athletics roll to react quickly enough), but other than those it isn't as frequently-rolled a stat as many, you're right. I think I agree that it gets short shrift sometimes because it's easier to roll Intelligence or Perception, even when the situation really calls for quicker response time than that.
Our PCs with Wits freaking love it, but then again everybody with eight Epics in something probably loves it.
Wits also seems kind of a.. parallel thing, I guess. What good does it do to think fast, when you're so mentally underfunded that you can't afford to fire off two neurons at the same time? So not only do you need Wits to react quickly, but you need the Intelligence to react PROPERLY. Or the Perception to NOTICE what it is you're reacting to. Or the Dexterity to have your reflexes not just fumble that grenade right out of your hands.
DeleteWhenever you'd need Wits, it seems like you ALSO need something else.
Throwing in my couple of cents, here's the system that I use:
ReplyDeleteSocial Resistance is based on Charisma/Integrity.
Mental Resistance is based on Wits/Integrity.
Physical Resistance is based on Stamina/Fortitude.
DV is still DV, Dexterity + Athletics (for Dodge, anyway).
In addition to the ability to stunt/Deed/Channel an extra boost to a defense, SR, MR, and PR gain a property called "Resolve" - this functions much like the Defensive Do-Over does for DV, but spends Willpower instead of Legend and adds 1/2 Integrity to the defense.
I did a sweeping audit of my powers to specify each Boon or Knack to roll This + That vs. The Other Thing, but generally speaking, SR is used to resist Social Knacks and things that affect the personality, MR is used to resist wacky mental powers like Paralyzing Confusion, and PR is used to resist things like Health Boons, environmental damage, and poisons that don't seem like they should necessarily be affected by Soak. There are certain exceptions, such as Justice Boons (which are balanced by the fact that they pretty much only work on the guilty and can't be used willy-nilly) and Magic (which is balanced by the fact that you don't get to add Epics to it, since I kinda liked that feature of Deugdonio).
As far as spending Willpower (apart from the Resolve feature) to ignore stuff, that can be done against normal, non-Knack persuasuion or whatever, but there's nothing from stopping a smooth-talker from continuing to try to wear someone down.
A more dumbed-down version of the system has been previously playtested, the game that's using the current version is still very new. My experience with it thus far is that people who have powers that are Resisted use them - a lot. Gameplay runs a lot faster when we don't have to roll as much, so I like target numbers better than opposed rolls whenever possible.