Question: I can think of a number of potential Titan Avatars to confront the Chinese pantheon, but none of them possess the same importance as either Apep or Kronos. Do you have any thoughts about this topic that you could share?
Oh, China. What are we going to do with you?
You're right. There really isn't a single Titan Avatar you can hold up in China as an example of the same kind of giant, overarching antagonist that you have with an Apep, Surtr or Kronos. This is mostly because China's mythology is a massive conglomerate of different religions fused together over a huge amount of time; unlike the Egyptians, who believed in basically the same gods (albeit with evolution and syncretization) over the lifetime of their religion, the Chinese have three or four different sets of them that have been smashed together into one zany whole, and their myths and legends are likewise tangled and inconsistent. No one Titan has taken on the Bureaucracy the way Surtr takes on the Aesir, and that's because no one Titan is universally involved in all the shenanigans of the multi-faceted Shen. Everybody in the Greco-Roman mythos understands that Kronos/Saturn fought a losing war against the gods and was imprisoned as punishment, but China might say that about different figures all over the place, none of which are necessarily universal.
Basically, China has too much going on for a single antagonist to cover it all. No one bad guy is going to be a big deal in all the many religions that together make up the synthesized Chinese mythology. There is too much China to love.
That doesn't mean that China doesn't have Titans, because it definitely does, but rather that they tend to appear with more variation in power and importance than those of other religions. China also has more than its share of the kind of Titans that aren't necessarily overtly antagonistic - beings like the gigantic, primordial Pangu, who is certainly not antagonist toward anyone but also fulfills a similar creation-Titan role as beings like Ymir or Tiamat, or Shang Di, the power of Heaven who was worshipped almost monotheistically in the most ancient Chinese religion and who bears a striking resemblance to Aten in some ways, but who also is still held in the highest regard as a distant, only seldomly-personified concept. These guys are almost certainly Titans, being way too ancient, uninvolved and gigantic to be really comparable to the gods with whom humanity has close ties and relationships, but they're also not exactly breaking down the Overworld's door.
Obviously, don't quote me on this as OFFICIAL JSR LAW or anything, because we are far away from being able to do a rewrite of the Celestial Bureaucracy (we're still knee-deep in the Orisha and it looks like you guys are heavily favoring the Amatsukami for the next pantheon project), but if I were to try to choose the best directly antagonistic Chinese Titan to oppose the Shen, it would probably be Gong Gong. A massive watery dragon (occasionally also described in human form) with a distinctly bad attitude who represents the capricious destruction of natural disasters, he basically rebelled against the Jade Emperor and the Bureaucracy in protest that his massive powers were being restricted by the regimented order of the Chinese pantheon, and along with hideous demon minions decimated much of mythical ancient China's population while running rampant in his campaign to overthrow the gods. He didn't succeed (when do they ever?), eventually being defeated in a many-day-long battle across the heavens with the ancient fire god Zhu Rong, a tiger-riding, sword-wielding badass, who threw him back out of heaven to the earth. Gong Gong proceeded to smash his head into the ancient mountain Buzhou, one of the pillars that supports the heavens, causing it to collapse and unleashing various other natural calamities, including tearing a hole in the sky that disrupted the course of the sun, moon and stars, causing huge rivers of lava to run out of the destroyed pillar to burninate everything nearby, and flooding pretty much everywhere else. It was at this point that the goddess Nuwa famously leapt into action to repair the hole in the heavens and add new supports to keep the Overworld from falling down, but even she could only do a patch job, and as a result the heavens have a permanent northwest tilt thanks to the uneven pillars. (And that tilt, and the accompanying disorder of the world, is the reason all rivers in China flow southeast - the more you know!)
So, yeah, that guy. He's a relic of older mythology and doesn't have a lot to do with later Shenism and Taoist philosophy, but he's my best bet for a Titan who directly opposes the Celestial Bureaucracy and is enough of a serious, dangerous threat that the whole pantheon needs to mobilize to deal with him. His release with the sundering of Tartarus would almost certainly be bad news for the Shen, and they'd have the same problems with him they did before - he moves quickly, they move slowly, and while he's loose he's pretty much blowing up everything all over the map.
There are, of course, other candidates for Chinese Titanhood besides Gong Gong, so don't feel like you have to run with my suggestion if you have another you like better. Since there's so much of Chinese mythology to go around, it only seems right that we all enjoy whatever crazy bits of it are most appealing!
What Titan/Element would Gong Gong belong to? Water? Chaos? Destruction?
ReplyDeleteI want to say Water, since he's so strongly associated with flooding and river/ocean disasters and his arch-nemesis is the god of fire, but I could see him associated with general Destruction (he'd be very similar to the way we use the Inca Kon, in that case).
DeleteBut isn't Water the Tuatha's problem, with Domnu and Lir and the Fomorians?
DeleteIt definitely could be. We haven't officially assigned the Tuatha yet, but Lir is a potent argument for Water being a major issue for them.
DeleteOn a related note: while Lir is undoubtedly a Water Titan, isn't Domnu a better candidate for ruling Avatarhood? She has strong Water connotations, and she's literally the anti-Danu and mother of the Tuatha's biggest Nemeses.
DeleteIt depends on what you want out of your Titan Avatar. Lir's more active than Domnu; he has a few myths (mostly Welsh) in which he actually does things or figures in the stories of the younger gods. Domnu, on the other, hand, never appears, even so much as in the role of an ancestress, and we only really know she exists because of the descendents who bear her name ("Domnann", children of Domnu, where the Tuatha are "Danaan", sons of Danu). She's a great opposite foil for Danu, but even Danu's got more on her in terms of actually being talked about in Irish legend.
DeleteI'd think they're both Titans, and which is in charge probably depends on the flavor of opposition you're looking for. Domnu's probably a better choice if Danu's still directly involved on the side of the Tuatha, Lir might be more useful otherwise.
I see.
DeleteHonestly, the only reasons I prefer Domnu are a. he doesn't strike me as particularly antagonistic (then again, now that you mention it, neither does Domnu) and b. I'm a bit prejudiced towards a strong female ruling Avatar, especially since the only other candidates I can think of are Tiamat and Louhi.
I'm the one who posed the question, so first things first, I'd like to say thanks for the excellent response.
ReplyDeleteThat said, Gong Gong is definitely one of the Titan candidates I had in mind. He's old, he does big things, and some texts claim that he's one of the descendants of Shennong. Better still, he's associated with floods, which seems ideal as a prelude to horrible disaster in Chinese culture.
On a related note, do you think that the Peng is big enough to count as a Titan Avatar rather than a Titanspawn of unusual size? On the one hand, it's a lot bigger than most monsters, but on the other, it seems to lack the cosmic oomph that something like Cipactli can bring to the table.
Glad it's helpful!
DeleteI'd be inclined to view the Peng as a really gigantic, really impressive Typhonian beast; it doesn't seem to have the connotations or drive to really be a Titan Avatar to me, and I don't know that it needs to be one to be powerful and potentially antagonistic at all the right times. You probably could make it an Avatar, but it would feel shoehorned to me.
Lest anyone forget, Gong, Gong is in the companion book as a minion of Pengu, who is imagined as chaos incarnate, one of the many story ideas and reworks that sends John into a blood spitting frenzy.
ReplyDeleteHuh? Didn't the Companion use Hundun as the Greater Titan of Chaos, with Chi You as its pseudo-Avatar?
DeleteHe's mentioned in the Celestial Bureaucracy's history section as a minion of Hundun (round page 66-67, I think), a minor god that the Titan empowered to oppose the gods. He doesn't have any particular stuff going on, though; he's mentioned as more of a footnote.
DeletePangu's definitely in Companion, but also as a historical footnote, and definitely not as a Titan; iirc, the gods claim he was the first of the Shen, but he's not around anymore.
Personally, we think Pangu is pretty obviously a Titan, which is why we wrote him up as one in the Titanrealm of Creation in the Bogovi supplement.
That seems like the best possible decision under the circumstances. Here's to hoping that 2nd Edition Scion is less reluctant to add non-hostile Titan Avatars.
DeleteI must admit that I'm not comfortable with Pangu being alive, but that's a matter of personal taste. Not to mention that it's a rather strange complaint considering the other dead gods and monsters still running around.
Yeah, considering the gods' previous victories, we'd lose a huge number of important Titans if we couldn't roll with anyone who was dead. Most of the time, "dead" for Titans just means "in Tartarus", and thus no longer applicable.
DeleteI feel you, though, it's sometimes hard to decide what to do with those big cosmic world-foundation powers like Pangu, Tiamat or Ymir.
Serving as rather literal foundations, I imagine.
DeletePersonal opinion aside, I'm glad that dead gods and monsters are still running around in Scion. A setting that has Tiamat and Pangu as actual actors rather than landscape might not be accurate, but it is more fun and perhaps even richer for it.
A tiger-riding, sword-wielding God of Fire does battle across the Heavens with a massive sea dragon incarnation of natural disaster, decimating the Ancient Chinese population as the Middle Kingdom is swarmed by hideous demon monsters.
ReplyDeleteAnd China "puts John to sleep"
To be honest I usually ignore China too, but then I hear another Chinese myth and I just think "how could this possibly get more awesome"
Heh, they're super awesome. I think it's just that they don't conform to much of the structure we're used to in myth thanks to their crazy synthetic nature, so it's hard to follow what they're doing all the time. Lots of awesome stories but not much of a through-thread, which can make it hard to keep up.
DeleteIt seemed to me at least there is a big idea that disorder in the natural world is meant to be a mirror of the disorder in human society a creature that destroys the land could easily also tear apart the bindings of society so perhaps making him Chaos would work?
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely possible! Most Titans have some element of Chaos attached for the orderly gods to overcome.
Delete