Oh my god, Super Loa Rewrite! I am so excited about this project, seriously, I'm ready to have babies with it. African mythology is so delightfully different from many other cultures' that I can't wait to really get into how to express and explore it through its gods, and the Loa have always been something of a sore thumb in Scion for us, so it's one of my favorite things to look forward to.
I can't give you solid specifics, obviously, because we're still in the process of planning it and haven't gotten to work on it yet (though I think soon we will be starting some new things - cross your fingers!). Major things we want to do are:
- Reintroduce major Yoruba gods who were unfairly excluded because they didn't carry over into the derivative New World religions. I've occasionally seen them in sub-pantheons for the Yoruba, and I applaud the effort to include them in the game somehow, but the idea that the indigenous African gods are somehow a sub-pantheon of the much later New World interpretations of them has always seemed somewhat ludicrous to us.
- Remove entirely New World concepts and ideas from the pantheon's overarching theme in order to allow Scions to work as children of the Yoruba pantheon, just as Scions in every other pantheon work as children of the original gods rather than much later versions of them. Those ideas are still available to players who want to pursue them, just as you could play a Scion of Tlazolteotl who thinks of her as the Virgin Mary, but it always seemed bizarrely backward to us that the core books treat the later derivation as the main mythology instead of the ancient religion it was based on. (They probably did so because vaudun is a lot more recognizable to the average North American gamer than Yoruba myth, and because the World of Darkness games used a lot of vaudun imagery and figures, but we're not having it.)
- Rework the ever-living shit out of Cheval. Right now it's easily one of the weakest PSPs in the game; even after we worked on it some, it's not coincidence that our Loa have never really bothered with it, because it's deeply underwhelming compared to the likes of Heku, Itztli or Samsara. It's also very narrowly focused on New World vaudun and Santeria ideas, excluding the African roots of the religion again. The new PSP will probably retain some elements of "riding" mortal worshipers, as the Yoruba religion also has a strong basis in doing so, but it will also probably lean much more heavily on African ideas of destiny and the three specialized paths of interacting with divinity (priest, prophet and diviner).
- Reassign them a Titan antagonist that makes more sense. Mami Wata is certainly an antagonistic figure, but she can't play with the big boys like Cronus or Tiamat, and she - and the entire Drowned Road, really - was shoehorned into a role that she couldn't really fill in an attempt to fit the Loa into the same format as the rest of the pantheons'. We're not sure yet what their Titan antagonist will be, but it's likely that it will no longer be Water, and we're considering Titans of more traditionally feared African concepts like Disease or Pestilence.
- And seriously, these associated powers need fixing, because they're an insane mish-mash smash-up of various different versions of these gods and misconceptions from popular culture. What a mess!
As for what gods we're considering removing and adding, those are still up in the air pending our ability to get heavily into research and start making calls, but there are a few that we have clear ideas on. Oshun, Orunmila, Obatala and Eshu, major Yoruba deities, will probably be joining the roster; Damballa, Erzulie, Agwe and Kalfu, who are purely New World figures, will probably be leaving it. We're still up in the air over the Baron and discussing what to do with his bizarre, rootlessly American-only self. Shango and Ogoun will remain, with heavier emphasis on their royal Yoruba roots. As for those Loa who leave the playable roster, they won't be banished from the world entirely, but we haven't yet decided what direction we'll be going with them.
If anybody out there has any questions, issues with the Loa they'd like to bring up, or suggestions or specialty ways of handling them, we'd love to hear about them before we head off to Yorubaland!
If the Baron Samedi must remain Legend 12, have him be a Scion of the Yoruba who ascended to Godhood to join them. Otherwise, no reason he can't just be a Legend 10 or 11 figure who works under the main Yoruba Death God in still bringing souls to them through a 'modern religion' context in the way that Vishnu became Buddha.
ReplyDeleteKalfu IS Eshu. There is no problem with him being banished. Papa Legba and Kalfu just decided to be like Piccolo and Kami (forgive my DBZ reference) and became their original self again to stop the Titans. Or, they never split apart in the first place and his Manipulation/Wits is so high that he just confuses his own followers into believing he's two different people.
I will miss Erzulie. :(
I had no idea Damballa wasn't African to begin with. How about that. And Agwe...sorry Agwe.
Yeah, the Baron is a big sticking point; he's hugely popular and has no origin outside the United States that anyone has been able to find, so deciding what to do with him in Scion's context has been odd. In the past in our games, we've hinted that the hypothesis about him originally having Irish roots is true, but we'll probably need to make a firm decision before this project can get off the ground.
DeleteYep, Kalfu is just a new-world Petro reenvisioning of Eshu (or Legba's more mischievous sides, depending on where you are exactly). Legba and Eshu do occasionally appear separately, but Eshu's definitely the stronger personality in Yoruba myth.
Alas, poor Erzulie, she is but a new-world dream. But Oshun will probably fill much of her role as a love goddess, and since she's kind of a mish-mash import of Oshun/Oya/Yemaja anyway, it'll still be possible for Scions to identify with her if they want to.
Damballa exists in Yoruba myth as Da, the cosmic serpent that supports the world, but he's not an active personality there the way he is in the American religions. He's more like a benevolent Jormungandr.
WOOT! I ask you guys about Eshu way back in "Trickster Shell Games" and I love that he's on your list of possible entries. Now I gotta ask in that post you said he may have Epic Manipulation, Chaos, Magic & Psychopomp. Is that still accurate or have you come up with any changes to his repetoire?
ReplyDeleteThose things certainly still look like strong possibilities to me! However, we haven't gotten to strongly start on this project yet (if you want us to, vote for it to the right!), so we don't have firmer specifics yet.
DeleteIf you're removing Damballa who do you think would fill his void as the intellect based Loa?
ReplyDeleteOrunmila is a god of prophecy, intellect and thought, so he'll nicely fit that role (actually, probably better than Damballa did). Obatala, while more focused on compassion and royalty, will probably also have a strong mental or two.
DeleteWhat are your plans for Anansi? I know he's played an important role in our games, but I am curious to see how/if he'll fit in in your reorganized African mythos.
ReplyDeleteAnansi's problem is that he isn't Yoruba - he's a god of the Ashanti people, who have a whole mythology of their own, so while he's awesome and we love to use him in games, setting him up as part of the Yoruba gods wouldn't make very much sense. It's a question that we're still working on; how to present the very concrete Yoruba pantheon while still wanting to give room to play with African gods from other cultures (not just Anansi but fun people like /Kaggen or Jengu).
DeleteIt's the same old question we always have over in the Native American cultures - not all of them are well-known or large enough to make it as pantheons, but they're not the same people so lumping them together would be very inaccurate.
Im shoe horning him in. We're gonna argue about it a lot. We'll see who wins....
DeleteCouldn't Anansi's situation be covered via Fatebinding? he may not be Yoruba but Aunt Nancy or Ti Malice seem to be tied to the people of the americas.
DeleteFatebonds could certainly shape and affect his popularity and behavior in the New World, but it wouldn't make him retroactively a member of an entirely different pantheon. It's not like Athena getting new Fatebonds in the American south would suddenly make her a Loa, after all.
DeleteI wasn't assuming it would be retroactive, but rather he picks up a nice little place in Loaland because of Fatebinding and diplomatic interactions.
DeleteThe problem is that Anansi isn't considered a Loa most of the time - Ti Malice retains elements of him, but isn't a very major figure and in general he's pretty much ignored in the Loa-worshipping religions. He does have strong connections to American folklore, but usually as his own thing.
DeleteI'd view it more as him being a visiting deity of another culture, the same way Mithra has cult presences in India and Rome as well but doesn't necessarily therefore need to be a Deva or Dodekatheon instead of a Yazata. He's an Ashanti god who happens to cross over sometimes.
I know it's not something you've ever really done, but maybe an option could be to make Yoruba-based Loa the "head" pantheon, and then have a sub-Pantheon that includes the Vodou-based Loa such as Damballa and Erzulie?
ReplyDeleteIt could be something fun, and would add a new type of conflict to the Pantheon politics.
Just a thought.
We generally don't do sub-pantheons; it's just not an idea we're fond of, for a lot of reasons. However, new-world Loa like those might very well just be Legend 9 or 10 deities that are part of the Yoruba gods' expansion west, keeping them in the game but not needing to invent any new mechanics or classification. :)
DeleteWe wouldnt do it cause we hate sub pantheons(hello vanir), but ....the main problem is that the loa arent actually much of gods. They arent actually worshipped as gods as loa. They are worshipped as spirits and saints that help you talk to the real god. Or as evil demons that you need protection from. There are VERY few places where they reach godlke status, and even then its only 1 or 2 of them(shango in brazil).
DeleteI will understand if Baron Samedi has to be put aside for the sake of actual mythology, but he is such an enormously charismatic and popular figure that it would be a damn shame. I know a lot of people that got into playing Scion for Baron Samedi alone.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's our major worry about it - while the Baron's probably the least connected to the original African religion of all of them, he is a well-known figure in pop culture and that often catches players' attention.
DeleteI'm interested if I could somehow join this, I've been lurking for some time. Please E-Mail me at ARCHDUKEOF562026@AOL.com. :)
ReplyDeleteI've recently become a fan of this Scion. I don't have the money to buy the books though.
Hey, there!
DeleteIf you just mean joining the blog community, all you need to do is make yourself a profile at Blogger and you should be able to comment with a name and get notifications. :)
If you mean being part of the writing team, we're not taking submissions at the moment, but we're always happy to hear feedback and suggestions on the blog, through the question box or via email.
Oh, a writing team, I thought this might be for a role playing game that's being hosted somewhere at the moment.
ReplyDeleteAh, I see! The site in general is for a roleplaying game - we run two for Scion. They're in-person face-to-face games, though, so unless you live in North Carolina in the States, they're probably a bit of a commute for you.
DeleteWe also write a lot of stuff for the game's world, that's what I thought you were talking about. Sorry. :)
Ah, I see. :)
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarification. Unfortunately I'm a bit West of you. lol
You know, rereading this, it seems like what you're doing is less a revamp of the Loa and more remaking them as the Orishas. Mayhaps you should divide the New World and Old World gods into separate but connected pantheons? The Orishas as one, the Loa as another, with certain gods crossing over, ala Haoma, Vayu, Quetzalcoatl, and Tlaloc?
ReplyDeleteAlso, outta curiosity, would the hunter Orisha Oshossi be a Legend 12 god? Cause I've looked into him and if I were playing a Loa/Orisha, he'd be my choice of parent, it seems.
Our whole point of doing the orisha though is that the Loa really dont have a leg to stand on. I explain more above in a comment to someone else. But they just arent gods except in very rare cases(and when they are they actually arent loa, loa specifically are NOT gods).
DeleteThe problem of Santeria/vaudun being basically monotheistic is a sticky point for us - the loa are technically only spirits or saints that act as the intermediaries between humanity and God (Bondye). Syncretization with Roman Catholicism has made them into a monotheistic system rather than their original polytheism, which raises weird concerns. Also, we're hesitant to have two pantheons simply because so many figures that cross over between the two are basically exactly the same, and it would be bloating the game with unnecessary extras.
DeleteAnd since players could always just worship/experience/think of their parents as any of their incarnations, just like a Dodekatheon Scion could do so for the Greek OR Roman OR Etruscan forms of their parents, we're not worried about most people being left out. It's only an issue for those specialty figures like the Baron.
But anyway, I actually mostly came to this comment to say that Oshossi would totally be up for consideration as a playable parent. I was only listing the ones we were pretty sure about above since we haven't officially started this project in more than theoretical terms, but he's definitely worth a look. I get the vague sense that he's a bigger deal in Candomble than he was in his original African cults, but I'll definitely be investigating him heavily when we start on this stuff. :)
OK, I see where you're coming from. Yeah, African/Diaspora myths aren't my usual area of expertise, so I was going with what little I knew.
DeleteAs for Oshossi, I found out about him when I was researching gods whose major deals were natural settings and caring for animals, since my character just became the Aztec God of Jungles and I was trying to figure out who he might run into or become conflated with. And, particularly since my guy has huge ties to the Amazon, that could potentially make an interesting turf war or alliance...
Of course, no one in my game is very knowledgable about the Loa, so their presence is minimal anyway.
Oh, definitely - where exactly the Amazon stops and the Yucatan/upper South American rainforests begin and who gets to control that turf sounds like an awesome place for possible tensions or cooperation. In his Candomble form, Oshossi is all about some Brazilian rainforest, so I'd run with him along with as many native jungle deities as you think would be reasonable. We didn't include most of the Amazonian tribes on our mythology map because they tend to have just the one or two totem deities instead of whole pantheons, but if there's anywhere those one or two deities get to make a splash, it'd be there.
DeleteYeah, I feel like the Loa get the short end of the stick, recognition-wise. People know kind of generally what voodoo is, but it's an unfocused vagueness involving sympathetic magic, spirits and bayou hoodoo. I've encountered relatively few players that actually knew much about the Loa themselves, or any of their other forms.