Question: Can you use Disorienting Countenance when you cannot be seen thanks to Phase Cloak, Absorb Light, or mundane stealth?
You can, but you'll become immediately visible; Disorienting Countenance depends upon your impressive appearance, which means that for it to work you have to actually appear. Using it to resist a power immediately breaks any stealth cover you might have been hiding in, whether mundane or supernatural.
It won't prevent you from ducking back into the foliage for your Natural Camouflage or diving back into a Shadow Shroud as soon as it happens, however; since your resist will be happening on the same tick as your antagonist's use of a power on you, you may be able to just hide again before he can react (assuming you don't have abysmally bad Wits; if you do, your Storyteller may rule that your reaction time isn't good enough for that, depending on the situation).
Luckily, this shouldn't come up too much, since being successfully stealthed in the first place is basically three quarters of being immune to social and mental powers anyway; they can't target you if they don't know where you are, so the only things that can affect you are wide-range, non-targeting powers like Loathsome Presence or Bacchanalia. If you can avoid your opponent being able to find you, you've already won half the battle.
But in general, Appearance-heavy Scions don't have the luxury of those who have the mental resist knacks to sit back and refute powers without having to be part of the situation. Scions with Disorienting Countenance are built to be seen and get much of their power from being seen; if they want to access it, they won't be able to do so from behind a comforting veil of invisibility.
I disagree. Most social powers should work just fine against stealthed people, unless the power specifically says that seeing the target is necessary or something similar.
ReplyDeleteExplain...cause that makes zero sense
DeleteWell, just because THEY can't see YOU doesn't mean YOU can't see THEM. So, no, they can't use Serpent's Gaze on you because they have to make eye-contact to do that. But they probably still could hit you with Compelling Presence which doesn't require eye contact. It affects people that can see you.
DeleteJust cause you're stealthy doesn't mean you're any less slack-jawed with awe/fear/lust when you're beholding the impressiveness/fugliness/hotness of a God.
Now meta-gaming does come into play here, because why would someone use such a power when they don't know anyone is there? But if they have a good reason to suspect someone is lurking, they could Come Hither and force you out of stealth. "I know you're watching so... why don't you come out and play?" *flash Boobs at Room*
Bam.
You guys make me need to go fuckin Mtg rules on people. If there is a TARGET on the boon, you need to know the target. If it just hits "everyone around you" or "nearest person" you dont.
DeleteOtherwise you do. Compelling presence, for example, is targeted. You pay per person. This means you need to see and know who you're using it on.
That makes no sense, and the world needs to make sense. It shouldn't function on magic the gathering style rules where mysterious eye beams are responsible for all of your social powers. Social powers are all about the way you look, the way you speak, the way you smell, and yes upon occasion the way you look at someone.
DeleteIf you know someone is hiding out in a corn field, and you call out sweet promises to convince them to show themselves? That's legendary. Not being able to use Charmer or benefit of the doubt or engender love in this situation because you can't stare at someone is just lame.
I think most of the confusion here comes over the word "target"; we're saying you can't use powers that specifically target a character you can't find, not that you can't use social powers at all.
DeleteOf course you can use Charmer to try to sweet-talk someone out of hiding; Charmer doesn't target others, it's a buff you place on yourself to make you more charming. Just as you could always roll Charisma + Presence or Empathy to try to convince someone to come out, you can always do so with Charmer up; it's a power you use on yourself, not the hiding person.
Come Hither, I think, is a bit of a silly example, considering that that knack specifically works no matter where in the world your target is and therefore obviously isn't subject to the normal rules. ;)
But things that specifically do target a character, like Paralyzing Confusion or Overt Order, do require you to be able to find them. There are several reasons this is necessary for the game:
1) Because once a person has successfully stealthed, you literally do not know they are there, at all. They might just be hiding in the bushes, sure - but they might also have teleported away, sunk through the floor, really been an illusion in the first place, et cetera. If you don't know that person is even there anymore, there's no way you can use targeted powers on them - that would be setting a bizarre precedent. We don't want people to be able to walk into rooms and randomly use Overt Order just in case someone is there, even if they suspect it; that's obvious abuse of the power's intent, and it leads to the second point:
2) It makes stealth pretty much useless against anyone except straight physical bruisers, and that's not a good idea, either. Stealthy characters are just as important a part of the game as every other archetype, and crippling them based on boon wording technicalities is a poor choice.
There certainly are plenty of powers you can use against those who are hidden - some Appearance knacks hit everyone around (Blinding Visage, for example) as long as they can see you, while powers like Instant Riot or Tranquility affect a radius instead of a target. That sort of stuff is all cool beans. But specifically targeting a character that you can't find and don't even actually know is there anymore is perilously close to metagaming, and doesn't make much sense in the world itself.
(We will, of course, consider exceptions on case-by-case bases depending on what's happening in a scene and the character's explanation. But it's not going to be common.)
Many powers work because someone can see you, not because you can see them. Many other powers work because you are speaking and you say them with a specific target in mind regardless if you can see them or not.
ReplyDeleteYou can turn on charmer and sweet talk the person hiding in the shadows to come out into the light. You could simply overt order them to come out of hiding. You could make a Come Hither gesture and lure them out of the shadows. She could make a scowling face and the shadowy figure could see it and run from the Game Face. She could say encouraging words and the person hiding in the shadows could find themselves bolstered by BFF. On and on and on.
Only things like Serpent's Gaze, Instant Hypnosis, and other effects that specifically mention your eyes really involve looking at your target.
Of course the Charmer/Overt Order/etc operates under the assumption you know that someone is hiding, just not where. Overt Order might be harder if multiple people are hidden and you're just giving the order to anyone in general.
DeleteYes. The real trick to avoiding social powers while stealthed is to make sure they do not know you are event present. Once they know you are then the kid gloves come off and they should be able to hammer you with most social powers just by virtue of knowing that someone is out there.
DeleteMan I coulda saved myself time and redundancy by scrolling further down.
DeleteIs this the reply to my "explain" comment above? Because it doesnt answer my question, just gives a few examples of different appearance things that would work.
DeleteAlmost all appearance requires the target to see you.
This is the reply to your "explain" comment above, which details why it makes perfect sense to be able to use social powers on targets you cannot see. Did you mean something else?
DeleteMy more thorough reply is above, but just to clear up more confusion about what targeted powers do/are:
DeleteCome Hither always works even if your target is continents away, because it's a power that can specifically target people who are not nearby. It's therefore exempt from most of the rules regarding normal power usage.
Charmer is always usable, because it's a buff on yourself, not a power you target on someone else (just like you don't need to target Body Armor at an enemy to gain its benefits).
We actually no longer use Game Face that way - it's now a knack that provides limited immunity to attacks for the Scion using it. As such, it functions a lot like Charmer - you can use it because it doesn't target anyone else. However, Dreadful Mien does still work the way you want it to - and you would need to know where that person was to use it, rather than leering randomly at shadows. (However, the area of effect knacks after it, Loathsome Presence and Waking Nightmare, could totally be used against a stealthed opponent if you got close enough to them!)
I'm not sure where everyone got the idea that we were talking about eye contact - we're not. We're talking about knowing where your target is - that is, actually knowing you're in the same scene with them rather than having no clue because as far as you can tell they vanished off the face of the earth.
Why does charmer have an activation roll? Do you have to beat somebodies resistance?
DeleteCharmer can be resisted if it's forcing someone to act in a way they normally wouldn't; it's a knack you use on yourself to make you more likable, but anyone around you who doesn't want to be affected can still try to resist. It's similar to the idea behind Bacchanalia or Waking Nightmare - it's not targeting anyone, but those affected by it may still try to resist.
DeleteMost powers that target someone can be resisted, but not all powers that can be resisted require a target, if that makes sense.
"The real trick to avoiding social powers while stealthed is to make sure they do not know you are even present."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that the entire point of stealth, though? To go undetected?
At any rate, the point of the post wasn't whether Appearance knacks work on stealthed people. The point was that you, the stealthed person, cannot use Appearance knacks while also remaining unseen by your targets.
There are a couple of things happening here. First, the issue of being able to use appearance knacks when you're stealthed. The answer in the post makes total sense.
DeleteSecond, the statement in the post that being stealthed makes you immune to social powers. This is the part where it stops making sense.
I think everyone agrees that if a social character does not know you are hiding somewhere they have no reason to use social powers to try and affect you.
Where this is meeting with disagreement is the idea that a social character needs eye contact to use non-eye based social powers on the hiding character, when they know or suspect the hiding character is out there.
Again - no eye contact here! This isn't WoD Dominate we're talking about, and only powers like Serpent's Gaze actually require eye contact. But targeted powers do require you to have a target, and if your target has mysteriously vanished, you don't.
DeleteAnon, no one said the things you are saying. Where are you getting this from?
DeleteThe line that says being stealthed makes you mostly immune to social and mental powers. Someone below quoted the point of argument :P
DeleteSo, you're disagreeing with the word mostly? And people are debating it by showing the few examples that make it "mostly" instead of "always"?
DeleteDisagreeing with the word immune, which implies those powers are being used against them and fail to work which should not be the case. People are debating it by showing how you would not be in any way immune to most social and mental powers.
DeleteBut your only mentioning a few. Most you are still immune to
DeleteBenefit of the Doubt, Borrowed Credibility, Blessing of Importance, BFF, Freeze Out, Boys Will Be Boys, Engender Love, Crowd Control, Calm the Savage, Pied Piper (if the hiding person is a mortal), Divine Figurehead, Peak Performance, Inspirational Figure (if the hiding person is a mortal), Instant Seminar (if the hiding person is a mortal), Paragon of Virtue, Preach On (if the hiding person is a mortal), and Filibuster.
DeleteSome of these are AOE, some of these are Single Target, and all of these would be valid against a stealthed character that you know to be hiding nearby. That's the majority of knacks in Charisma alone. I can keep going into other attributes if it is necessary.
Gonna list these out.
DeleteNope, you need to see them.
The purpose of the power is to work when you arent even there.
Probably
Same as above
Need to be able to see the person(ish, would allow leeway if the person just left the room)
Need to see the person
Need to see the person
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Aoe
Very first thing the post said was that obviously aoes work.
The only exception in your entire list there to what we've already said would be viable is possibly freeze out, and then only in certain circumstances. Everything else is something we already mentioned would work in the original post.
All those 'need to see the person' just don't make sense to me. I honestly cannot fathom why you would need to see someone when you can still talk to them.
DeleteI had a really long reply written out, but honestly? It's your game and you can use whatever rules you want. If this somehow makes sense to you and your players then keep on having fun. Peace out.
Ah, the backhanded "your game, have fun" comment. Classic forum style. I applaud your passive aggressiveness.
DeleteI will use whatever rules I want, I've written a giant website to house them that you are visiting. I doubt you actually had a long written reply, because any actual reply to my comment would have to be the tune of "wow, you're right, the many things I listed all fall under the thing you said about how aoes dont count".
But keep doing whatever lets you sleep at night. Keep having fun. Peace out.
That's intentional baiting and you know it. If you were willing to change your mind, you would have done so by now. If I was willing to change my mind, I would have done so by now. That's all there is to it.
DeleteI'm seriously going to try and take one more shot at this, because this is starting to look like we are trading insults and that is not the direction I wanted this to go.
DeleteI listed Single Target and AOE Target knacks to be comprehensive. We both agree that AOE works. We are disagreeing if Single Target works.
I listed those Single Target powers because you don't need to see your target to use them. I have previously explained that just knowing your target is around and being able to talk to them should be sufficient to use those Single Target powers on them.
Your response was to restate that you 'need to see them'. This implies that knowing your target is around and being able to talk to them is insufficient, and my goal is to convince you that it is sufficient.
Someone below posted the example of a blind Scion. Under your ruling, that Scion cannot use Benefit of the Doubt, Borrowed Credibility, Boys Will Be Boys, or Engender Love because she cannot see her target.
I think there's still some confusion over what stealth is doing and why that means it works to block these things. Yes, you would not be able to use Engender Love on someone who was successfully stealthed.
DeleteBut that's not because you can't see them; it's because you have no idea if they're even there anymore. You can't see, hear, smell or otherwise find any trace of their presence if they've successfully stealthed, and they could actually be gone. You have no idea. "Well, I saw them go into this room!" is meaningless in a game that's rife with illusions, teleportation and distraction powers - unless you're dealing with a mortal, you literally have no way of knowing somebody is even there to use a power on.
And if you don't have a target, you can't target them. That guy could be in Bangkok by now. It's not a matter of sight, just like it's not a matter of eye contact; it's a matter of that person having literally vanished off the face of the earth for you. You can think they might be around, even heavily suspect it if you know them and their powers well... but you can't know they're there short of Mystery or seeing through their stealth.
As long as you are anonymous it is very difficult to know what you have "previously explained." But other then that I move onward.
DeleteThere was no point in listing the aoe powers in your argument because we already agree on those. The question to which you replyed was about which of the things we didnt agree on.
AT NO POINT DID WE SAY YOU NEED TO SEE THE PERSON!!!
STOP SAYING THAT WE SAID THAT.
We said stealth, stealth pertains to ALL SENSES!
If they are perfectly stealthed they might as well not be there. The question asker used the word "seen" but our reply does not talk about sight at all.
Anne: It does not matter if you have no idea they're even present anymore, because as long as you think they are there you can try to use a social power to influence them. As long as the stealthed person can see and/or hear you, and your social power was meant for them, then the stealthed person has to roll to resist. If the stealthed person has somehow gotten to a place where they cannot see and/or hear you then you lose the cost of your social power to no benefit and you were mistaken.
DeleteWhen Odin walks into a room and somehow notices it is full of Illusion, he can call out, "Loki! Show yourself!" If Loki is hiding within earshot then he has to roll to resist or show himself. If Loki is not actually around then Odin just looks like a fool.
When someone runs into a corn field and you cannot sense them anymore, you can still shout something to the entire corn field. If they can hear you then they need to roll to resist.
John: "This means you need to see and know who you're using it on."
"Nope, you need to see them."
"Need to be able to see the person(ish, would allow leeway if the person just left the room)"
"Need to see the person"
"Need to see the person"
Your example of Odin would be a straight-up Charisma + Command roll, and of course he might be able to get Loki to come out just by telling him to. But he wouldn't be able to use Overt Order to do so, because Loki could be in China for all he knows.
DeleteAlas, sir, we simply disagree. It's our opinion that you can't use powers on stealthed people because it doesn't make sense and is crippling to the idea of stealth; it's your opinion that you can. We're not going to get around this one, I'm afraid.
I suppose so, and thank you for the debate!
DeleteAlways glad. :)
DeleteCan character feel themselves spending legend or willpower?
DeleteNot in the number-crunchy terms players think of when looking at a sheet, but yeah, I would assume so. You know it takes effort to do magical things; you know when you run out of resources that you're too tired to do them anymore. Running down to zero Willpower leaves a character feeling tired and depressed, so that's certainly noticeable; running down to zero Legend doesn't necessarily have a specific effect other than not being able to do things, but our PCs usually express it as feeling drained or desperate.
DeleteIf I may chime into the conversation, I think an important distinction needs to be made between 'knowing there is a target' and 'guessing there is a target'.
ReplyDeleteTake a hypothetical scion that is completely blind (maybe her eye sockets were sacrificed for magic or maybe she was just born that way). If this scion hears someone speak, then Target = Person That Just Spoke and this should work. If she walks into the room and tries to overt order just in case someone is there, then Target = Unknown and she fails. If she chases someone into a room but then cannot find the person and she tries to overt order for them to reveal themselves, then Target = Person Who Just Ran From Me and this should work.
As long as you are convinced there is a target you should be able to use targeted social powers again them. If you are mistaken (because they fled through the floor and cannot hear you now) then you just lose the legend/willpower you spent.
Case by case situation. But I agree with the ones you have presented.
DeleteAlso the tangent on over order is strange(as are all the charisma things) because we are were talking about appearance originally.
If I had to hazard a guess? "Luckily, this shouldn't come up too much, since being successfully stealthed in the first place is basically three quarters of being immune to social and mental powers anyway."
DeleteThis does seem to reference all social and mental powers, even if that was not the intention.
Ah, I see. Not the actual chunk of the post, but 1 line out of it. It all makes sense now.
Delete